Bass Fitness - Input please!

[schmig]

Hi folks,

I picked up a copy of the above (you'll know what it is if you've come across it).

My question: the exercises immediately become very very hard. For instance:

- 1 finger per fret, index on low F, pinkie on Ab
- Play pattern 3-4-1-2
- Repeat, moving all fingers but 3 up to next string, and so on.

I have big enough hands...6 ft 4 and everything in proportion.

My question: How was your experience with this? I can get into the positions but very tenuously, I certainly couldn't play in them.

Would like to know how you managed?

[maxgrant]

First thing you should worry about is are your hands comfortable? Are your wrists bent noticably? If you're 6' 4" you should have no reach issues, and your trouble is simple hand strength.

The goal is to make it comfortable for you to do those things so you can work on the finer aspects of your technique. The only way to do it is to start slow, keep your hand in a good position, and feel the burn. It is like any other strength training. I've been doing chromatic runs using shifting positions. I've also done ascending/descending modal scales, switching through all of the modes from the same root. For all these finger-benders, I just started slow and kept at it until I could do it fast and for a long time.

Edited to add of course if you feel sharp pain you should stop. There's a difference between sore/tired and injured.

[renobassman]

I'm going through this book right now, and I'm finding it helpful to start in a higher position. I start each excercise really slowly at the 7th fret so my hands aren't stretching as much and I can really get a feel for the pattern. Once I get the fingering down, I start to move down one fret at a time.

[Hankenstein]

My experience was similar to yours. At first the exercise was tremendously difficult and painful. But after a few weeks I was able to do it and I still do a similar exercise everyday to start my practice session. It's a great exercise. Last month's Bass Player magazine had a very thorough exercise like this.

Take your time. As maxgrant says, do it slowly, feel the burn. Learning to play is a marathon, not a sprint.

[schmig]

Thanks for input so far. Starting up on 7 seems like a good idea..guess I was taking the directions too literally..!

[MalcolmAmos]

I use the box pattern for just about everything I do. Should mention I'm electric bass. I understand the finger placement is different for upright bass.

Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

The box occupies four frets and I have four fingers. Each finger is assigned a fret.

Index gets the first fret, i.e. that is all it is responsible for.
Middle gets the next fret, always.
Ring gets the next one, yes always.
Little finger gets the last fret, yep same thing.
I've burnt that into muscle memory so it works for me.
Takes time, but, time well spent.

[nashvillebass]

Never play with any pain in your left hand. If you want a long music career, stop immediately when the pain creeps in. Pain is your body's warning sign. The bass guitar isn't a guitar. It's a bass. Most folks don't have "huge" hands, so the line of thinking about 1-2-3-4 fingering all over the bass is false. In the lower positions, used 1-2-4 fingering along with the use of open strings. Keep and use your 3-4 fingers together. Upright players have been doing that for hundreds of years and it works. I'd say the time to explore the 1-2-3-4 fingering guitar approach would be at the 5th fret on up. Once you have carpel tunnel syndrome or arthritis, you're done and have to live with the pain for the rest of your life. I believe, lots of older musicians would concur with this line of thought. Happy Thumpin'!

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by nashvillebass

Never play with any pain in your left hand. If you want a long music career, stop immediately when the pain creeps in. Pain is your body's warning sign. The bass guitar isn't a guitar. It's a bass. Most folks don't have "huge" hands, so the line of thinking about 1-2-3-4 fingering all over the bass is false. In the lower positions, used 1-2-4 fingering along with the use of open strings. Keep and use your 3-4 fingers together. Upright players have been doing that for hundreds of years and it works. I'd say the time to explore the 1-2-3-4 fingering guitar approach would be at the 5th fret on up. Once you have carpel tunnel syndrome or arthritis, you're done and have to live with the pain for the rest of your life. I believe, lots of older musicians would concur with this line of thought. Happy Thumpin'!

+1 to all the above.

Originally Posted by maxgrant

First thing you should worry about is are your hands comfortable? Are your wrists bent noticably? If you're 6' 4" you should have no reach issues, and your trouble is simple hand strength.

THE "S" word always crops up in these type of threads. Generally the problem lies in developing dexterity and stamina, which are quite different from strength.

[chadhargis]

I'm 6'5" with large hands as well.

Something I attribute to the problem is what I can the "smashing a marshmallow into a piggy bank" syndrome. When you have large hands, you may not have issues with stretching to hit notes, but I personally have issues squeezing my fingers together to hit notes. Stretching out is easy, it's playing in very close quarters such as chromatic runs and such that cause me issues. I get the same "burning" feeling in my hands and will even experience cramps if I do something repetitively, even root-V.

It's not a strength issue. It's a comfort issue. I typically don't have this issue on my 5 string basses (particularly my G&L) that have large necks. But small J style necks will have me wincing in pain after a short time.

To get a feel for what I'm talking about, curl your fingers up till your fingertips touch your palm and oscillate all your fingers as if you were fretting a note on your palm. Feel the tension in your fingers?

Now make your hand in a "C" shape (sit it on a table and let it relax, it will be close to the "C" shape"). Sort of how your hand would look holding a can of soup. Now do the same motion. Much easier and more fluid, right?

Now imagine you have HUGE hands, and you are playing on a skinny Jazz neck and you have to maintain something similar to the first shape the entire time you play. You can see where the fatigue would come in.

Some of the best bass players I've ever seen had TINY hands. Some I've seen personally, and wonder how they can even play with such tiny hands, but they absolutely shred a bass. I think it's because it's much easier to play stretching your hands to hit notes than it is crunching them up to hit notes.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

[nashvillebass]

Originally Posted by chadhargis

I'm 6'5" with large hands as well.

Something I attribute to the problem is what I can the "smashing a marshmallow into a piggy bank" syndrome. When you have large hands, you may not have issues with stretching to hit notes, but I personally have issues squeezing my fingers together to hit notes. Stretching out is easy, it's playing in very close quarters such as chromatic runs and such that cause me issues. I get the same "burning" feeling in my hands and will even experience cramps if I do something repetitively, even root-V.

It's not a strength issue. It's a comfort issue. I typically don't have this issue on my 5 string basses (particularly my G&L) that have large necks. But small J style necks will have me wincing in pain after a short time.

To get a feel for what I'm talking about, curl your fingers up till your fingertips touch your palm and oscillate all your fingers as if you were fretting a note on your palm. Feel the tension in your fingers?

Now make your hand in a "C" shape (sit it on a table and let it relax, it will be close to the "C" shape"). Sort of how your hand would look holding a can of soup. Now do the same motion. Much easier and more fluid, right?

Now imagine you have HUGE hands, and you are playing on a skinny Jazz neck and you have to maintain something similar to the first shape the entire time you play. You can see where the fatigue would come in.

Some of the best bass players I've ever seen had TINY hands. Some I've seen personally, and wonder how they can even play with such tiny hands, but they absolutely shred a bass. I think it's because it's much easier to play stretching your hands to hit notes than it is crunching them up to hit notes.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

It makes sense. Looks like a Jazz Bass is not for you. It's a common misnomer, that large hands are an "advantage" when it comes to playing bass. Pain is no gain when it comes to playing an instrument. However, proper technique is a huge gain. Honestly, this whole thing about bass aerobics, tools to make your left hand stronger are simply stuff created to sell. None of this stuff existed when some of the best bass players in history were around. Don't bother with that stuff. Learn music and play off the chords. i.e. melodic ideas, rhythm patterns, groove displacement, reading, ear training, note choices, solid meter, jamming at home and with other musicians, etc. Not things like how fast you can play 16th notes, building "stamina" for a gig, etc. It's a waste of valuable time. Most importantly, have fun!!

[schmig]

I would respectfully propose a counterargument to your point. While I agree that these books must be a recent thing, without the right sort of common sense, influences, talent, and luck, these books can be very useful.

I was playing away in my bedroom for a couple of years, out in the countryside, with little or no exposure to any other players. I developed a very heavy handed technique up to the point where I started gigging regularly, must have played a couple of hundred gigs before I started to look at the likes of this book. Previous exercises I've worked on over recent months have greatly improved my lightness of touch on both hands, and with repeated practice I've managed to comfortably do things that previously were awkward and painful..left to my own devices I don't think I'd have fixed my technique.

I see plenty players around who play with with what looks like very poor technique..in fact I would venture to say that the best players in this town have lots of thumbs over necks and were all born without pinkies..but they've somehow worked it out, however they did it, and are great players.

For me, after 4 years, initially in the bedroom and a couple of those gigging, the bass has always felt painful, awkward, embarrassing..no matter how good my ear and my theory were. I've found that slowly working through exercises that i read (whether musical or "athletic") has improved me a lot..I experience less fatigue etc.

The reason I posted this one today is that I picked up this particular book thinking, well, I can do the other stuff pretty well now, I've heard this one is tricky, so if I can get it down, I'll consider myself OK on this front and stop worrying about improving my left hand technique.

It's just that the exercises almost immediately struck me as near f*cking impossible!

Edit: I have nothing to do with this book or any other book, in case sounds like am plugging it/them!

[nashvillebass]

Originally Posted by schmig

I would respectfully propose a counterargument to your point. While I agree that these books must be a recent thing, without the right sort of common sense, influences, talent, and luck, these books can be very useful.

I was playing away in my bedroom for a couple of years, out in the countryside, with little or no exposure to any other players. I developed a very heavy handed technique up to the point where I started gigging regularly, must have played a couple of hundred gigs before I started to look at the likes of this book. Previous exercises I've worked on over recent months have greatly improved my lightness of touch on both hands, and with repeated practice I've managed to comfortably do things that previously were awkward and painful..left to my own devices I don't think I'd have fixed my technique.

I see plenty players around who play with with what looks like very poor technique..in fact I would venture to say that the best players in this town have lots of thumbs over necks and were all born without pinkies..but they've somehow worked it out, however they did it, and are great players.

For me, after 4 years, initially in the bedroom and a couple of those gigging, the bass has always felt painful, awkward, embarrassing..no matter how good my ear and my theory were. I've found that slowly working through exercises that i read (whether musical or "athletic") has improved me a lot..I experience less fatigue etc.

The reason I posted this one today is that I picked up this particular book thinking, well, I can do the other stuff pretty well now, I've heard this one is tricky, so if I can get it down, I'll consider myself OK on this front and stop worrying about improving my left hand technique.

It's just that the exercises almost immediately struck me as near f*cking impossible!

Edit: I have nothing to do with this book or any other book, in case sounds like am plugging it/them!

Point taken. Not against books at all. In fact, they are a major part of learning. I love Carol Kaye's books. They get up and playing in not time. From what you've written, it appears the one thing missing in your education is a great teacher. Find one in your area if you can. Make sure they can read, have prior education, etc. Perhaps, check with the local symphony or music store? The great bass player, Ray Brown, always preached the importance of finding a good teacher. It'll save you a lot of hassle and you'll reach your goals in a shorter amount of time. Another part of the learning process is not only listening, but watching others play the bass. Whether it's good or bad technique. These days, you can dial up YouTube to see some of your favorite players. If it were me, I would analyze electric players like Jaco, Victor Wooten, John Pattitucci's right and left hand techniques. Very sound and solid. I wish nothing but the best for you, my bass brutha'!

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by nashvillebass

Most folks don't have "huge" hands, so the line of thinking about 1-2-3-4 fingering all over the bass is false.

I have to disagree here. I don't have huge hands (I'm 5' 6") but I have used 1-2-3-4 fingering for most of my 26 years of playing, except down in first position. Then I do the 1-2-4 trick.

Again, 26 years. I do not have arthritis or even pain in my left hand. I have a cyst on my right wrist, but that's a totally different issue.

I think it's a case of your mileage may vary. It is very comfortable for me to 1-2-3-4 scales from say F# on up. I rock back and forth on my thumb to reach all the notes, but I don't actually shift thumb position.

If it's not comfortable I wouldn't do it. And of course it's not even possible on an upright bass (I don't currently play but I studied it in college for my music minor).

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by chadhargis

I'm 6'5" with large hands as well.

Something I attribute to the problem is what I can the "smashing a marshmallow into a piggy bank" syndrome. When you have large hands, you may not have issues with stretching to hit notes, but I personally have issues squeezing my fingers together to hit notes. Stretching out is easy, it's playing in very close

I played in a band with a guy who played mandolin. His hands were bigger than mine.

He absolutely owned those little tiny frets, by the way. He had an electric mandolin that had been given to Sam Bush by Washburn. Sam Bush decided it was crap and gave it to his protoge, who was the lead singer in my band in 1988.

He turned that mandolin into the noisiest solo instrument you've ever heard. We had so much fun with it. Anyway, if I could get hold of him I'd send his email your way so you could ask him about mashing marshmallows into piggy banks.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by nashvillebass

Never play with any pain in your left hand. If you want a long music career, stop immediately when the pain creeps in. Pain is your body's warning sign. The bass guitar isn't a guitar. It's a bass. Most folks don't have "huge" hands, so the line of thinking about 1-2-3-4 fingering all over the bass is false. In the lower positions, used 1-2-4 fingering along with the use of open strings. Keep and use your 3-4 fingers together. Upright players have been doing that for hundreds of years and it works. I'd say the time to explore the 1-2-3-4 fingering guitar approach would be at the 5th fret on up. Once you have carpel tunnel syndrome or arthritis, you're done and have to live with the pain for the rest of your life. I believe, lots of older musicians would concur with this line of thought. Happy Thumpin'!

Amen to this. I'm fighting a nerve issue right now that stemmed from imperfect fingering technique on the double bass. I'm not going to be able to play for a couple months most likely. I'm hoping it's not permanent. And I'm 25. Don't mess around when your body is telling you to change what you're doing. I was only a month into a cruise ship contract and had to be disembarked.

DON'T EVER fight through the pain. If you're having trouble with 1234 down in F, F#, G, Ab, then switch over to 124. I do 124 on the electric most of the time, I find it extremely comfortable and you can use that extra finger to mute strings when playing RnB and funk.

[Marial]

The book is a good tool, I liken it to Hanon for bass guitar.

[schmig]

Since OP I've been working away on the first few exercises, but on the fifth fret, where they're now doable. I'll move them down a fret next week.

I also showed them to my teacher (one of the go-to session players in the country) who appeared shocked by them and recommended I stay well away from them, as they looked unsafe. I'm continuing in secret, but *well* up the neck for now..

Edit: I feel terribly guilty now.

[brydo]

Stick with the book, but understand its purpose and approach the exercises accordingly...

I typically start a given exercise from this book at 60 bpm (or slower) at the first position and work up to 180 bpm at the 9th fret. The book has been useful to me as far as string skipping accuracy for my left hand fourth and fifth fingers, executing difficult chromatic passages, as well as working on my "Gary Willis" right hand three finger technique (or, at least, my poor approximation of it).

The whole goal of this book appears to address unusual left hand fingerings (and not "fitness"). That said, there's no reason not to start at a fret high enough for the exercise to be comfortable and no reason to feel bad if you have to play an exercise below the minimum tempo markings (or even without a metronome at all). It's OK for these exercises to feel very awkward at first (again... the goal is to make the awkward feel natural), but not OK for you to feel discomfort or pain. Sacrifice tempo and/or low fret position to make the exercise to feel as effortless as possible and work towards the goal of playing it cleanly as your primary goal with tempo and low fret position as secondary.