Bass follows the kick, or vice versa?

megadan · #1 07-30-2009, 01:00 PM

A question, mostly for those making original music.
Generally when working on a new song, the drummer will come up with a beat or you will come up with a bassline. We tend to play something off hand based on our innate rhythms, which differ from person to person.

In either case, do you think that the bassist should change the rhythm of the bassline to follow the kick and snare pattern? Or should the drummer be responsible for adapting his beat to the bassline?

Obvious this is Talkbass and not Talkdrum, so we might be biased, but still... a valid question, I think. I've struggle with this in various bands, as the drummer is often prone to playing a pre-learned beat over whatever the guitars do (which 95% of the time sounds fine), but the bassline usually responds more specifically to the guitar, and thus I feel that the drums should follow that. At the same time the bassist needs to be responsible too and create basslines that work with drum patterns.

I come from a style of music where the kick drum and bass sound best following each other in complex patterns, which is why I ask.

chondro776 · #2 07-30-2009, 01:13 PM

It is funny how the timing of posts seems to coincide with events in my life. I am working w/ a new drummer on exactly that.

To answer your question, I think that the art is in figuring out when who follows whom.

In other words, both. Bass should follow in some cases, the kick in others.

wetzelman1 · #3 07-30-2009, 01:41 PM

i think it all depends on your dynamic as musicians. My drummer practiced mainly with guitarists and not bassist for most of his life so he does a lot fo crazy fills and interesting drum beats. This in turn really allows myself to switch back and forth between guitar and drums as I see fit and take throw down a beat every once in a while.

as a pocket player, everyone seems to say bass follows drums and i don't necesarily agree with that statement. Bass being percussive should be influenced by the beat but the melody of that beat needs to be influenced by guitar.

So to answer your question, should bass follow guitar or drums? I say "yes" and "no".

mambo4 · #4 07-30-2009, 01:49 PM

In my band, the drummer and I have a 50-50 exchange of ideas. Sometimes He suggests a a bass patter with his kick drum, others he follows me.

don't be tied to your own ideas, keep an open mind, and play what sounds best.

wildhorse · #5 07-30-2009, 01:52 PM

Being a drummer and a bass player I can confidently say: It all depends. Can go both ways. And can change back and forth within the same song.

varunkapahi · #6 07-30-2009, 02:22 PM

yep it often depends upon who came up with the cooler idea first :P

megadan · #7 07-30-2009, 02:28 PM

Good points. I guess the best rhythm should be the choice, the hard part is deciding which rhythm is the better one. Often they are very similar to begin with, but sometimes the drummer will play something that's totally out of spec with the bass line I'm trying to use.

I guess it's just a matter of good communication. Or you could let the guitarists pick

Vynns · #8 07-30-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chondro776

It is funny how the timing of posts seems to coincide with events in my life.

I have that too!

Collective unconscious? Hmmm...

chjohnst · #9 07-30-2009, 02:41 PM

This happens more to often I find where a bass line is created before the drummer has even heard it. Times like those typically the drummer should adapt to the what the bass player is doing so it can mesh. But if the drummer comes up with a rhythm before the bass player has heard its the duty of the bass player to adapt to that.

With all things equal this can't be completely one way towards the bass or the drums. It has to sound good in the end with the beat working together.

-Chris

Audiophage · #10 07-30-2009, 02:44 PM

It really depends on your relation with your drummer. The drums don't always have to be the time keeper. It most jazz type music the bass is keeping the time.

The only definite thing I can say, considering that I know nothing of your band, is that if you come up with a bass part originally, the drummer should be flexible enough to follow you, and vice versa.

Also, when playing with a drummer, don't always go for what the kick is doing. Listen to the composite rhythm across the entire set. Keep and open mind as mambo said.

father of fires · #11 07-30-2009, 02:46 PM

I do a bulk of the writing in my band and we are very riff heavy so the drums need to accent the key parts of the riff.

So in my case he needs to follow me.

I think it depends on who originated the idea. If I write the song then I probably have an idea of what the drums should be doing. If he tries a different pattern while I'm palying and it works I might follow him for a measure.

I imagine that if he were to come to me with a drum beat I would most likely follow him because he has the groove figured out already.

Am I making any sense.

Audiophage · #12 07-30-2009, 02:48 PM

Complete and utter sense.

chjohnst · #13 07-30-2009, 03:09 PM

Exactly how it works for me. In the style of music I make (rock/funk/acoustic) I like to keep the bass and drum locked in. I play with another drummer who has a tendency to play the kick drum off beat with what I am doing. It doesn't sound right to my ears.

TheVoiceless · #14 07-30-2009, 03:20 PM

I think you can really decide that per song. Or your bands natural original sound should determine. I joined a band in which the drums and lead guitar were synced from years of playing together. So it was extremely hard to get the drummer to break that and sync with me. I think what may be the determining factor would be if the kick is on the 1 or the back beat. If the drum part is established as the bulk of the song then you should find a common ground with the kick drum, while honoring the guitar parts. Like I say the bass is the bridge between the drums and guitars. Either I play along with the guitar part or I will come up with something independent following the groove of the drummer.

ghiadub · #15 07-30-2009, 03:29 PM

We both play the pocket - which is a non answer but I can elaborate - we both listen to what each other are playing and will unconsciously and consciously modify the kick/bass pattern constantly.

ric stave · #16 07-30-2009, 03:51 PM

Either/both should follow the song...

Maybe it's not a clear choice, but take an example of a simple kick on the beat of the measure, or anticipating on the '&' of 4 (or whatever) of the previous measure.

Is it a random choice that the drummer is hitting on the anticipation, or does it fit what the rest of the band is doing either chordally or vocally? If it's not clear, tape the song and listen to it - what makes sense?

Let's just say, unless it's THE BASS PLAYER'S band, or THE DRUMMER'S band, there's no hard and fast rule as to who is more right (exclusive to bass or drums)

jaywa · #17 07-30-2009, 04:36 PM

Also, don't forget about the singer (though we all want to sometimes). If the lyrics are busier, maybe the kick and bass pattern stays simpler. OTOH if the singer leaves a lot of space, you can do a little more. That happened a lot in one of my old originals bands, the guitarist, drummer and I would come up with these super intricate, complex riffs and then the singer (who had extremely good song sensibilities) would come in and say, "what am I supposed to do over THAT?"

Of course if you're an all-instrumentals outfit than the slate is totally clean!