Bass line threads here seem worthless...

[timmbass]

Something I have been thinking about for a long time:

I have been searching and reading all the threads here that are about actually creating and playing bass lines. Not about walking jazz bass lines, but about rock and pop bass lines.

And it seems to me that the information in all of these threads is basically worthless. Pun intended.

When talkbassers reply to threads about music theory or bass players or impedance their answers are wonderful and full of great information. But when it comes to helping people who are struggling with actually playing bass the answers are not so wonderful.

Let us review. How do I learn to create great bass lines for my original rock and pop band? Learn scales. Learn arpeggios. Learn modes. Learn diatonic harmony. Play with a metronome. Play with a drum machine. Play with a drummer. Play with people better than you.

So. I have done all that. Four years of all that. I know the major scale in five and in seven positions. I know the pentatonic scale in five positions. I know major and minor arpeggios up and down starting on any string. I know enough already. I know that I know more of this stuff than the bass players I go out to see in original bands who are playing great bass lines that they created to music their singer wrote.

And then the one that really frustrates me: Find a good teacher and take lessons. The reason that this really frustrates me is that the teachers I have taken from simply have me do all that stuff outlined above that did not get me there already anyway. And when teachers find out that I know lots of scales and arpeggios, instead of teaching me to play rock and pop bass lines like I ask them to, they want to teach me more complicated scales and modes and arpeggios so that they can have me working on walking jazz lines that I tell them I am not going to do right now no thank you.

I have a theory. Most of you guys here and maybe all the teachers of bass I have been to could play bass fairly quicklly in several different styles pretty much by ear. Then when you and they wanted to advance your playing, you and they took lessons and learned scales and arpeggios and modes and all these things helped someone who could really pretty much already play build better bass lines.

So when someone like me comes around who does not really "get it", you, I beleve incorrectly, point me to work on the advanced material that helped you become better, instead of helping me work on the things that helped you be able to play, long before you worked on all that other stuff.

When children learn their native language, they learn slowly and simply without knowing any grammar at all. Then later they learn grammar that helps them speak and write better. So then when older people want to learn another language, while they do spend some time with vocabular and grammar, the first most important thing is for them to learn to be conversational. I belive that this is what is missing in bass instruction.

Every time I read in a thread the recommendation to go get a teacher and take lessons, I wonder if there is this golden information that all these teachers have, why not simply outline it here? If a teacher is going to have me to x, y, and z, why not simply type in your answer, hey, you need to go do x, y, and z? I know the answer. Because x, y, and z is scales, modes, and arpeggios, the "wax on, wax off" of bassdom. As if we spend time in our bedrooms playing scales and arpeggios (washing and waxing) that we will be able to suddenly play these wonderful bass lines.

Ok. Timeout. Peace. Truce. I do understand that this is a text forum and we are talking about music so there must be a minimum amount of music theory that we all know so that we can communicate what we are talking about. And I do understand that music is similar to an oral tradition that is better learned at the feet of a experienced guide.

But my point is that the answers here on talkbass seem to assume that if a student learns a, b, c, then all those students will be able to take the leap to x, y, and z. And many of us can't. the reason we are asking is because we can't. I remember reading in a guitar magazine about a guitar player in a rock band talking about how his brother showed him some things one day when he was like 14 and he just started playing guitar and never took a lesson. Now, is that guy going to be able to teach me anything? Here, Tim, just take this bass, let me tell you where the notes are and how to play it, there you go. Go start a band.

Ok. This is what I am going to do. I have worked out several chord progressons in Band-In-A-Box, and I am going to start a chord progression and start a style and simply sit here in front of my computer and play along to that. One chord progresson and one style for the entire day. No more practice. No more lessons. I am going to use what I know to learn to play bass lines to chord progressions. Tomorrow I will change the key, change the chord progresson, and change the style. And do that for another day. And continue to change chord progressions, keys, and styles. Until I get it. I am simply going to switch around using chord tones, pentatonic notes, and scale notes.

If you have anything to tell me to help me with that I would love to read about it. If you have any other ideas that are based upon slow progress and not based on jumps of enlightenment I would love to read about that.

Maybe I just can not do this. Maybe every one like me usually quits bass long ago. Maybe when teachers tell us to learn scales and arpeggios, some people get it, and the others quit. Maybe I am the only one who did not "get it" and continued to plow ahead working on scales. Well. I am tired of it. I am ready to figure out how to play or quit and take up someting easy like golf.

[fenderhutz]

Rock and pop lines have alot of feel and groove, you can know every scale in the book and not have a good feel or groove.

If you are not hearing basslines in your head while playing in a band or thinking about a guitar part, maybe you are right. Rock or pop is not for you.

[timmbass]

Yes. Maybe I should just watch more tv.

[fenderhutz]

Honestly though, not trying to be pain. No book or lesson you take is going to teach you how feel out a bassline.

[timmbass]

I am with you. Like I said, I may simply not have what it takes.

I think my situation is that because I did not "get it" early, I can not get help from people who "got it" early because they are expecting me to take a leap that I do not seem to be able to make.

But I still have faith that there may be some slower process for people like me. One that depends on steps and not leaps.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by timmbass

So. I have done all that. Four years of all that. I know the major scale in five and in seven positions. I know the pentatonic scale in five positions. I know major and minor arpeggios up and down starting on any string. I know enough already. I know that I know more of this stuff than the bass players I go out to see in original bands who are playing great bass lines that they created to music their singer wrote.

Sounds like you missed the most important one... learn other peoples basslines by reading music and (especially) by transcribing.

Arpeggios tell you which notes are the strongest choices to outline the changes. Modes and scales tell you which notes to use to link them together. They say nothing about feel and placement (apart from using chord tones on strong beats).

Take a simple bassline that you like, and learn it. Try to figure out why what they play sounds good... try to figure out the notes they're playing by yourself. Use one of the many free programs out there that slow down and loop sections of music... try and develop your ear.

You totally nailed the key to creating good basslines... you need to have a good ear. Scales and arpeggios are just tools to help you on the way.

[timmbass]

Oh. Thanks. I forgot to mention that. So. I have this great software named Transcribe! that I use to learn the basslines of songs that I like. And this great software named Earope that I use to work on the sounds of intervals and chords.

[fenderhutz]

Hum the lines as you play, and hum lines you hear as well.

This helps.

[Marcury]

Put your bass down and sing lines to whatever you are trying to come up with lines for. When you sing something that you like, pick up the bass and figure it out.

[5andFretless]

I am with you. Like I said, I may simply not have what it takes.

That's being a little harsh on yourself

The question could be asked like this: "How do I write a hit song?" and most people would tell you that either you can do it or you can't, and no amount of training can ever compensate for the "can't" part. Yet when the question is asked in reference to a bass line no one seems to think that way, yet it really comes down to the same thing.

However, with a little training and practice, most people can come up with an acceptable bass line, just like most people can come up with an acceptable melody, and I would bet that you have been there for quite some time.

Here is what I do: I either run a variation of the melody or the main guitar riff in a pattern that mimics the kick drum. That is what I like the bass line to sound like in our songs. Is it right - I could care less, it is what I want it to sound like.

[phektus]

I am yet to get a teacher , maybe next month. I find the major scale helpful as well as my major and minor chords. They are all I know for now. What I do is listen to my self / soul / head for a good bassline for a given tune. Then I find the notes one by one on my bass, even just something close or that which gives a similar feeling. In this process the major scale helps me a lot, though I know I also go for notes that don't belong to it - must be another scale mode I have yet to learn.

So what I'm saying is that I feel it is important to listen more than knowing. Listening gets you there. Knowing the theory provides you the options and framework.

What Flea said about cosmic stuff that we can get to express themselves through us really inspired me. Now I approach making basslines like how MichaelAngelo saw sculpture - a figure in the rock that begs to be chiseled out. I haven't been playing for a year so this might not be as sound as it seems to be, but it works for me as of this time giving basslines to my bandmates that satisfies them. I hope my teacher can help me expand on this.

[BassChuck]

What you are asking is how to connect with a creative frame of mind. dlloyd has come as close as possible (IMHO) as the language will allow.

One thing I will add. Years ago I met Don Ellis after a concert and told him I really wanted to play with his band and what could I expect of an audition, should I ever get the chance. He was really a great guy in that he took time to talk over exactly what he did in auditions (he also gave me a recording of his rhythm section playing through the changes of some of his more famous tunes). He said he would ask to hear something (anything) and then he would ask to hear it played 'in a different way'. He said then he would continue to ask that and see how many ideas the player had. Sounds simple at first, but try it. Play some simple Blues line and then 'do it different' and see how many variations you can come up with. Try a different line. Try a Christmas song.

If you are looking for a book, likely you'll not be totally satisfied with anything on the market, but I do think that Chuck Sher's "Improvisers" book would be best to check out.

Remember too, that you can always play bass when you aren't playing bass... keep singing lines and songs and change them around, see what you can come up with on your own.

I'll close this with a quote from Aldous Huxley's "After Many A Summer Dies The Swan". He says, "The biggest failure in life is to accept the world as you find it". (there is always a different way, some are better).

[timmbass]

I have been on construction sites where there are people who are not gifted in art who are building this large complicated thing that will stand up and work for many years.

I would think that it might be true that I might never be good enought to play for Dave Matthews, but I hope to think that I could be good engough to be comfortable in bands around town with my friends.

[MaxZolt]

Originally Posted by timmbass

I am going to start a chord progression and start a style and simply sit here in front of my computer and play along to that.

I have found this approach to be extremely effective in learning to create bass lines. I started playing double bass in 4th grade, and when I started taking lessons my teacher didn't start me off with theory - instead, he gradually taught me to figure out what sounded right, and what didn't.

When I picked up bass guitar after about 6 years of double bass, I followed the same principle. I would sit down in front of my computer, put my music on shuffle, and play along with whatever came up. Sometimes I would try to figure out the bass line note-for-note, but often I would just play something that was different, but still sounded good and fit the song.

I'm not trying to say theory is useless. However, if you know the major and minor scale patterns, and can identify which key a song is in, you should be able to sit down with pretty much any song and come up with a fitting bass line.

[Pacman]

You don't need to get a teacher.


If you want to learn to write rock and pop basslines, you need to learn rock and pop bass lines. (It's called transcribing) But, you need to think about them in a fashion that teaches. What do you like about this bassline? What makes this bassline different from one you don't like? Do this enough, and you'll be where you want to be.


Money back guarantee.

[timmbass]

Pacman is on my thread.

I guess you can tell that I am a little self critical and maybe a little too linear and way to obsessive. I am hoping that getting this out and talking about it and moving in a different direction will help me to relax and use what I have learned in a more creative way.

I had to reach this point. I had to come to the end of spending too much time with technical learning.

[DocBop]

I would say the problem I see is too many think knowing X, Y, and Z will be the answer to the question. No, the answer is putting X, Y, and Z use or as a teacher of mine used to say to students.... See it, Feel it, make it your own.

Or as a crude but great Jazz Improv teacher I had (Jazz improv teacher tend to be crude and abrasive so you better have thick skin because you will get a earful) would tells students who tried to studied Jazz theory and didn't practice much.... Ya know you can read all the books about screwing you want, but ya won't know what it feels like till ya do it. That is the PG-13 version of his rant.

That is why in my post I try to tell people to play this stuff and get it inside of them. I don't care about names and labels, people get too hung up on their theory POV is the "correct" one, the only thing important is discovering the sound and finding ways to use it. Good teachers should be stressing playing and listening, not just learning theory, songs, licks and leaving at that. Why do you like something, why don't you like it? Even good ear players in their own way are finding sounds and cataloging them so they can use them again.

Bottom line everyone need to discover how they learn best. That is what school is trying to teach without saying it. You got to school and take lots of classes that you're not sure why and have to pass tests to graduate. Well what they aren't telling you they are teaching you how to learn. You are to discover what type of studying works for you. How to pass a test. like learning a set of songs for a gig. Your learn how to learn. Music is no different. You learn the basics of your instrument like a little kid learning to speak, you learn fundamentals of theory so you can make sentences, you play a lot to learn how to use these things the way you learn to talk so other understand you. Then you BS as a survival skill. Like music so you can play a song you never heard, handle someone turning and saying take a solo you have the practice and developed your own set to tools to get thru it.

As for the end of the OP post like learning what sex feels like only you can do that no teacher or book can really explain it. If learning scales and stuff don't make sense you aren't playing enough and listening and thinking about what your playing. If just playing songs isn't doing something for you or making you want to understand more, them maybe golf would be better. BUT golf will be no different you have to feel it and want otherwise your just going thru the motions. Only you can find what lights the fire in your belly.

[dmusic148]

I would suggest putting down the books and computer and just play along with your favorite cd's. Anthony Jackson, among other notables, did this for years. It's a great way to play with great players(see Victor Wooten's book). Pick certain songs that have exceptional bass parts, such as 'silly love songs', and learn those note for note. Bass player magazine picks a cool tune each month and transcribes it, learn those too. I think what's happened is you've come at it from the opposite direction most people do. A lot of us just picked it up and thrashed away at it until we could play OK, then some of us went and got more educated. Seems you've been doing it the other way, which is fine, but along the way you haven't been able to explain your predicament to those who want to help. The things you've learned or been taught so far are great tools that can help you immensely once you really start to understand the harder to define 'feel', or role, of the instrument, and your own voice on it. To get this requires playing, a lot. Again, I strongly suggest just jamming to your favorite stuff. Concentrate on tone, volume, but especially timing.
Time, time, time. This is where your feel will come from. This topic is one which would cover many pages, but for now simply worry about not rushing. Dragging is bad but rushing is much, much worse. You are much more likely to rush than drag, especially on slower songs. Most of all try not to get frustrated-have patience with yourself, and never put down your bass in anger. If you really want it it will come. It just takes ears, hands, and a love of music. And time.

[timmbass]

Most of all try not to get frustrated-have patience with yourself, and never put down your bass in anger. If you really want it it will come. It just takes ears, hands, and a love of music. And time.

Wonderful. Encouraging. Thank you.

[jimbob]

Great replys here. I'd like to add playing on occasion with other musicians besides your band can be a refreshing change for you. Head to an open mic night and jam with some strangers every now and then.