Bass Lines on the fly

[MalcolmAmos]

My bass playing revolves around jamming with a vocalist that accompanies himself on rhythm guitar. Just the two of us. Its old time Country.

No sheet music, he has just the lyrics on paper, so he is jamming the chord progressions as he feels them. I tried looking up the chord progressions and playing from that, however one instrument jamming and the other playing by rote just does not get it. So he calls out the key and I assume a I IV V and flow the best I can.

OK that out of the way. Now my question. Old Time Country bass lines on the fly. I'm comfortable with the Root whatever bass line, however, as I can not predict what Tom will be doing next - talk to me about using the tonic pentatonic for my bass lines. Its all Major and 4/4 time 99% of the time.

I've been mixing the pentatonic into my playing more and more and am having trouble finding any hints, tips, etc on using pentatonics. I've pretty much come to the conclusion any note in any order from the tonic pentatonic can be used in my bass line - the beat, groove, is the important factor. Need some help .....

Thanks,

[Minotauros]

For as much help as you've been to me, sadly I can't return the favor. But I want to hear the answer also.

However, I'll go out on a limb and say that if I remember my teacher's intro to pentatonics, the lead or solo guitarist is playing a pentatonic scale over whatever key the rhythm guitarist is playing. No reason that doesn't apply to bass also, imo.

So I think it's more important to know what key he's playing in rather than specific chords at any one time, and play in that pentatonic scale.

Lemme think this through, as much an exercise for me as anything else.
So if he's in D maj: D E F# G A B C# and playing I IV V he's playing D (D F# A), G (G B D), A (A C# E). Dmaj pentatonic is D E F# A B.

I'm probably totally missing something because that sounds either too easy or too over-thought.

[Minotauros]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I've pretty much come to the conclusion any note in any order from the tonic pentatonic can be used in my bass line - the beat, groove, is the important factor. Need some help .....

Thanks,

After my explanation of the roadmap through hell and half of Georgia, I'll bet you're exactly right, and it's no more than that.

If that's the case, I better get over my fear of and prejudice against pentatonic scales and shapes.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

My bass playing revolves around jamming with a vocalist that accompanies himself on rhythm guitar. Just the two of us. Its old time Country.

No sheet music, he has just the lyrics on paper, so he is jamming the chord progressions as he feels them. I tried looking up the chord progressions and playing from that, however one instrument jamming and the other playing by rote just does not get it. So he calls out the key and I assume a I IV V and flow the best I can.

OK that out of the way. Now my question. Old Time Country bass lines on the fly. I'm comfortable with the Root whatever bass line, however, as I can not predict what Tom will be doing next - talk to me about using the tonic pentatonic for my bass lines. Its all Major and 4/4 time 99% of the time.

I'm going to come at this from a somewhat different angle...

Having worked with singer/songwriters before, I find their utter unpredictability with chord changes - especially when they're "jamming" or are still working out the structure of a song - to be completely maddening. Working alone, as so many of them often do, it doesn't matter one bit whether they stay on that A min 7 for a full eight beats - or for only 7 ¾ beats. Whenever they "feel" the change is the only thing that matters.

Working regularly with other musicians, as so many of them do not, is a whole other kettle of fish - as you've already discovered. There has to be a consensus on 1) what the next chord change will be, and 2) when it is coming - else you (and whatever other musicians may be playing along later) will always be at a very serious disadvantage. From a bassist's standpoint, not knowing the changes in advance "freezes" you from ever stretching out and creating a real line, preventing you from confidently walking from one tonal center to the next, disallowing the use of passing notes, and so on.

This being old-school country, you're probably able to "fake" your way through a great deal of it simply by staying very basic and pentatonic, as you've suggested. But being compelled to take this approach probably limits the development of the music (even old-school country), even while it allows you something a coping mechanism.

The real solution to this, in my opinion, is to work with the singer/songwriter on a deeper, more compositional level, to integrate your bass parts into the very structure of the tunes - in which case jamming time morphs into songwriting time. You stop the flow much more frequently to discuss how well a particular element of the tune works or does not work, and make changes accordingly.

Once their is basic agreement on the structure, then actual jamming time can be used much productively - to build out the tunes in potential new directions, to get a better idea of the additional instrumentation required in order to "finish" it and make it sound polished and professional, etc.

Make sense?

MM

[Billnc]

There is a problem with pentatonic major I believe, if the tunes are in C the IV chord is F which is not to be found in C pentatonic major. The root is so strong in Old time country you've got to hit it. I've had the same problem with blues solo acts asking me to sit in, solo they have a 1/2 measure tacked on to think of a word or something it makes the bass player the odd guy out.

Now I've found a looser feel all around (like Hot Tuna with fairly active bass over blues based music) works well and works in folk music too. Maybe this approach will work for you.

[seanm]

Much old time country is four chords. I find that the use of the chords tends to be: I V IV VI II.

If the singer tends to jump, he will probably be predictable within a given song, bridges aside. So stay real simple the first go around, just roots and fifths if you can. The next time through you can try adding more fills, but be ready to have to switch in the middle of a fill. After a while, you get used to it.

By "go around", I mean verse/chorus in case that wasn't clear.

[jefkritz]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

I'm going to come at this from a somewhat different angle...

Having worked with singer/songwriters before, I find their utter unpredictability with chord changes - especially when they're "jamming" or are still working out the structure of a song - to be completely maddening. Working alone, as so many of them often do, it doesn't matter one bit whether they stay on that A min 7 for a full eight beats - or for only 7 ¾ beats. Whenever they "feel" the change is the only thing that matters.

Working regularly with other musicians, as so many of them do not, is a whole other kettle of fish - as you've already discovered. There has to be a consensus on 1) what the next chord change will be, and 2) when it is coming - else you (and whatever other musicians may be playing along later) will always be at a very serious disadvantage. From a bassist's standpoint, not knowing the changes in advance "freezes" you from ever stretching out and creating a real line, preventing you from confidently walking from one tonal center to the next, disallowing the use of passing notes, and so on.

This being old-school country, you're probably able to "fake" your way through a great deal of it simply by staying very basic and pentatonic, as you've suggested. But being compelled to take this approach probably limits the development of the music (even old-school country), even while it allows you something a coping mechanism.

The real solution to this, in my opinion, is to work with the singer/songwriter on a deeper, more compositional level, to integrate your bass parts into the very structure of the tunes - in which case jamming time morphs into songwriting time. You stop the flow much more frequently to discuss how well a particular element of the tune works or does not work, and make changes accordingly.

Once their is basic agreement on the structure, then actual jamming time can be used much productively - to build out the tunes in potential new directions, to get a better idea of the additional instrumentation required in order to "finish" it and make it sound polished and professional, etc.

Make sense?

MM

yes. i like that idea.

and regarding pentatonics, as long as you're playing the pentatonic for the chord you're currently in (ie C pentatonic when the chord is C even if the song is in F), any note will work just fine. unless it's a weird chord, in which case let your ears be your guide.

[JimmyM]

listen to some basslines from that style of music and see if you can steal a few licks. seriously. also, work on developing a library of "stock licks" that you can use in different situations. and remember what worked well and what didn't. it definitely gets easier with time and experience.

[MalcolmAmos]

Thanks for the posts. Tom and I have been playing with each other every Thursday for about 4 or 5 months now. The more we play together the better its getting.

And yes Country lends itself to Root something, R-5 seems to always be correct.

Another thing that is causing me problems is Tom adds flourishes quite a lot, they do seem to be the same "pattern" so I'm going to work on duplicating those and echo the effect. Worth a try. Make lemonade.

I think the answer lies out there somewhere, I just have to find it.

Thanks for your help.

[eggfan]

I vote for root-V and listening really hard. Traditional country music rarely if ever calls for much else. But my sense is that he'd be the one out in the cold in the context of an actual old-school country or bluegrass jam, since there are agreed upon conventions for those types of situations, in terms of song structures, etc. I mean, part of playing with other musicians involves not just doing your own thing all the time. I did notice that Mel Bay has a book on "jamming" that seems designed for bluegrass, folk, and other group jam type situations - maybe check that out. At least then you'll be ahead of Tom as far as the musical conventions that govern that type of situation.
Edit: To add Amazon link to the book in question: http://tinyurl.com/yzvxxsr

[MalcolmAmos]

Thanks, "A bass players guide to jamming" looks like what I need. $16 shipping included - just ordered it.

Thanks again.

[eggfan]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Thanks, "A bass players guide to jamming" looks like what I need. $16 shipping included - just ordered it.

Thanks again.

I'd love to know what you think of it, in case I decide to use it myself. In any case, let us know how your situation works out.

[JTE]

Root/five with scalar (generally) movement between chords. I to IV, just walk up first, second, third and land on four. Pentatonic major is the diatonic major with the half-step notes (four and seven) left out, right? So if you need the 4 for the IV chord, then you've gotta go out of the pentatonic major anyway.

Like most musics, the key for the bass is to define the chord progression. That means we gotta OWN the progression- we need to know what the chord is, what the next one is, and how the relate to each other. That means the movement between chords has to pull your ear to the next chord.

So, again, SING what you think a good bass line for something would sound like, then figure out how to play it.

And the more you work with the singer, the more you'll learn to read their rhythmic quirks. Much as Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts got good at reading when Keith was going to turn things around, you'll learn to know where your singer is going. Visual contact helps a lot.

John