Bass in time with kick drum

[twexpress]

I've heard that when you are playing with a band and just flowing that it is best to watch the drummer's kick drum, is there any truth in this?

(Sorry for the questions like this, I'm sure that it is annoying too see them over and over again.)

[bassist4dalord]

DEFINITELY.

/thread

[ccmbassplayer]

you and the drummer are married on stage.
You have to be in sync witrh the drummer.. hes the time keeper and you lay down the groove.

[Stumpy]

No synch? No food! (synch = groove)

Yes that is why when a rhythm section locks up everyone is happy.

[J-Building]

I don't know...a lot of the material I write centers around harmonizing with the guitar and creating a countermelody under the guitarists. Rarely, if ever, do I follow the drums. In my old band, my rhythm mostly followed the drums. I only use the drums to stay in time. This may be the "traditional" way in doing things, but I try to not be traditional.

[tmw]

Either keep tabs on the drummers foot/kick drum or have the kicjk drum come through in yoour monitor. I always ask for kick drum in my monitor. That helps a lot when I cannot get a good look at what his foot is doing.

[simonsaysred]

Sometimes the mix is muddy and all I can't hear the kick too well, so I watch it to sync with it. But yeah, it's super important!

[Daveomd]

Nothing wrong with that but there are times where you are going to be competing for sonic space and you will have to work something out so there aren't any disruptions. It doesn't have to be AC/DC but you will have to hook up sometimes or figure out how to stay out of each others way. I find it to be dynamically interesting to shift in and out of both methods.

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by twexpress

I've heard that when you are playing with a band and just flowing that it is best to watch the drummer's kick drum, is there any truth in this?

(Sorry for the questions like this, I'm sure that it is annoying too see them over and over again.)

Generally yes, big time.

Having said that, there are some exceptions, where you play some things alternating between you and the bass drum. More in some types of music than others. Have to usually listen REALLY closely to notice, at first glance sounds like they're playing in sync since their freqs are so close together. When in doubt lock with the bass drum. Sometimes I let the snare time my release, so the note doesn't ring forever. Gives a more staccato feel. Stopping the note connects me to the snare drum too, helps me feel the groove.

The cool thing about keying partly off the snare is when you can't hear the bass drum well, the snare always cuts through. Once you're used to where the snare goes, you can feel where the bass drum ought to be and aren't lost if you can't hear or see the bass drum.

Pay attention to when the notes STOP as well as start. Mimic the nuances of the original.

Randy

[twexpress]

Thanks everyone for the answers. These types of things grow with experience I know so I guess I will develop my own sense of it as I play more. For now anyways I will try to keep with the kick.

[CDweller]

Depending on the type of music, timing your note choices to coincide with the kick drum really propels the music nicely. You might also focus on having no note ring at all on the two and four so that the crack of the snare is really prominent- you're giving the drummer space. This way you get a sound like doomb-doomb DACK, doomb-doomb DACK, or low-low high, low-low high both rhythmically and tonally (think of the drum part to the beginning of "We Are the Champions" by Queen). Not saying to always play "One And Two, One And Two, (One And being the bass drum and bass guitar, Two being the snare), but definitely try matching his bass drum part, and leaving space for his snare. You don't have to do this all the time, but check it out for yourself and see what you can make from it. Your drummer is going to hear you hearing him, if he's any good, and he'll probably get jazzed by your efforts. You also might notice, if you're playing dance music, that the girlies dance a little more energetically when the rhythm section locks it up.

[JimmyM]

bullcrap!



carol kaye has an interesting take on this "bass must follow kick" nonsense. she says the reason that it got started is because nobody wanted to play the bass back then so not many people were that good at it. she says they were told to follow the kick just to keep them playing safe lines that wouldn't interfere with everyone else, and because they were too incompetent to do anything else. i totally buy into that explanation.

but those days are over. there are a lot of really good bass players now that not only put over the rhythm of the song but they can do it and not follow the kick at all. many of the greatest bass lines in history step all over the kick, but they sound great because they're still serving the song and moving it forward. think of jamerson, for example, or mccartney. now and then they followed the kick when it was appropriate. more often, though, they're all over the drummer, so much that the drummer gets out of THEIR way and follows them. some songs do have a bass following the kick. that's cool. but it can also be a bit boring if that's all you do.

and that's how i think it should work. the bass should rely more on the other rhythmic instruments rather than the drums, and the drummer more often than not should follow the bassist, not the other way around. of course, you can never tell them that, but one of the great things about playing bass is being able to completely change how a song feels in a subtle way that nobody suspects next thing you know, they all bend to your will and they don't even know it!

[J-Razz]

I like Bootsy's explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by J-Razz

I like Bootsy's explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4

ya, listen to how bootsy totally ignored the bass drum except for the one, and it worked. he comes from the james brown "always on the one" school, though, and there are styles of music that you don't even have to be on the one. in a lot of hispanic music the bass will sometimes go a whole song and never hit the one. and reggae's famous for the one-drop, where the bass plays on everything but the one.

so there's nothing you can't do in the right context. that's why i say throw out that follow the kick nonsense. that's the boring rock bassist in 1960 way of doing things.

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

bullcrap!



carol kaye has an interesting take on this "bass must follow kick" nonsense. she says the reason that it got started is because nobody wanted to play the bass back then so not many people were that good at it. she says they were told to follow the kick just to keep them playing safe lines that wouldn't interfere with everyone else, and because they were too incompetent to do anything else. i totally buy into that explanation.

but those days are over. there are a lot of really good bass players now that not only put over the rhythm of the song but they can do it and not follow the kick at all. many of the greatest bass lines in history step all over the kick, but they sound great because they're still serving the song and moving it forward. think of jamerson, for example, or mccartney. now and then they followed the kick when it was appropriate. more often, though, they're all over the drummer, so much that the drummer gets out of THEIR way and follows them. some songs do have a bass following the kick. that's cool. but it can also be a bit boring if that's all you do.

and that's how i think it should work. the bass should rely more on the other rhythmic instruments rather than the drums, and the drummer more often than not should follow the bassist, not the other way around. of course, you can never tell them that, but one of the great things about playing bass is being able to completely change how a song feels in a subtle way that nobody suspects next thing you know, they all bend to your will and they don't even know it!

I agree with this,... it also depends on what genre you are in,...

I play in a three peice metal band where my drummer is more into black metal/crazy stuff... lots of double kick, lots of accents and fills, I quite think he's starting to sound like the drummer of mastodon in that weird progressive way (I like it anyways) however sometimes trying to play with him is more about NOT playing the kick... one of our songs both drums and guitar are going crazy but I laid back and just play root 8th notes during verse and a weird pattern that locks in the snare on the chorus, somehow stops the chaotic overly fast elements of the song to get a bit more groove back into it.

Other times I roll with the double kick and play along to get a bit of speed happening when the guitar is playing simple chords/leads. I'm still exploring what does and doesn't work but in my case trying to follow the kick doesnt always work

[Munjibunga]

I don't know if I'd spend much time watching the kick drum, but I sure as heck listen to it. I've found that, after some time playing with a drummer, you both develop a sense of what the other is going to do. I find it harder to not lock in than to lock in.

I don't agree with the "throw out that follow the kick nonsense" nonsense. While not appropriate in every song, the combination of the attack of the kick drum with the bass note adds impact to the groove.

An interesting side note: I've read in several places about bassists who run a compressor/limiter with a kick drum mic inserted into the side chain to duck the bass. What this does is mute the bass on the kick drum attack, then quickly releases so it sounds like the attack is always the kick drum. Supposedly, it tightens up the sound.

I've always questioned the need for this, if the drummer and bassist have any talent at all. It may be more common in recording than live. Have any of you guys ever done this?

[GM60466]

When I interviewed Joe Osborn for Vintage Guitar Magazine. Joe told our readers that he was always a quarter beat ahead of Hal Blaine's kick drum.

G

[JimmyM]

re: compressor ducking, never. that's for that club dance music that turns people gay.

i would say that it can add impact to the song sometimes to follow the kick. once in a while. other times it makes it plod along and sound boring. obviously the bass and kick are going to hit together some of the time. i'm just saying don't be so married to it that it's all you do. show a little creativity sometimes and make the drummer come to you instead of you going to him all the time. who died and made him your boss?

[Hutzbordello]

well theres other things goin on with the drumming than just the kickdrum.............

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

re: compressor ducking, never. that's for that club dance music that turns people gay.

How do you know they're not gay already?