Basslines in a metal trio

metdistortion · #1 02-17-2009, 12:09 PM

I am playing bass in a metal band with just me, a guitarist that also does vocals and a drummer. We are writing our own material, groove metal, similar to bands like Pantera and Machine Head.

Me and the guitarist often jam alone together, writing new material. The problem is the guitarist tends to play complex riffs, and I don't want to just be following these riffs exactly, playing the root note and embarrasing myself by getting him to give me a step by step guide to what notes he is playing. But I don't really know what else to play. I am hoping that when we play with a drummer, I will be able to work more with the drummer, instead of following the lead guitar, but then I wouldn't know what notes would complement the music. Also what do I play during guitar solos? I've tried playing the main riff during them, but the guitarist often changes tempo, and sometimes changes key during the solos, so the main riff doesnt fit with the music, then I have no idea what to play.

Sorry if it isn't clear what I mean or the post is confusing, I'm not feeling too good mentally. Any ideas would be much appreciated, thanks in advance

megadan · #2 02-17-2009, 01:23 PM

Sounds like you need to work with your guitarist on some root structures before he plays complex riffs over them. If he wants to do that you need you start with the basslines, otherwise his "key-changing" solos are just random noodling and not a song, imho.

Jamming with the drummer might help. Your guitarist sounds talented - start a groove with your drummer then let the guitarist work things out over it, this way you're in on the chord changes.

metdistortion · #3 02-17-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadan

Sounds like you need to work with your guitarist on some root structures before he plays complex riffs over them. If he wants to do that you need you start with the basslines, otherwise his "key-changing" solos are just random noodling and not a song, imho.

Jamming with the drummer might help. Your guitarist sounds talented - start a groove with your drummer then let the guitarist work things out over it, this way you're in on the chord changes.

I was thinking of playing just the notes the riffs are based on, leaving the complex add ons to the riffs just to the guitarist.

Setting up a groove to base the music on with the drummer sounds like a good idea in future, except the problem is that the guitarist tries to base the songs around riffs he writes, getting the rest of the band to work around them, which is how our first few songs have been written, and why I am having this problem

NineSpine · #4 02-17-2009, 01:36 PM

You only have to follow the guitarist's lead if you want to. If you want the writing to be a little more collaborative, you need to assert yourself a little more as far as writing the basis for the material. As long as you look to him to come up with the basis for everything (which sounds like what's happening), you will have to write FOR his riffs, which will limit you to often just pounding down those root notes, especially in metal.

Let me specify that there isn't anything wrong with writing that way. If a bassist wants to just take cues from the guitarist, or if that is the working dynamic: Awesome! It's a perfectly viable method of writing. However, if you want to have a bigger say.... you need to say so.

As far as his soloing goes: Key and temp should be decided on. He shouldn't be changing it at random. As long as it is preset, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to rock a simple bassline and spice it up with some arpeggios or something. Transposing the "main riff" to whatever key he changes to can be effective in a lot of instances.

There is nothing wrong with trial and error. I don't see why any reasonable person would complain if you wanted them to just jam out a riff for ten minutes while you tried new things. All to often, musicians are afraid to ask the band to do this for them because they don't want their playing to sound bad while they process the music and write to it. There is nothing wrong with it. If anyone were to give you crap for needing to do that, they wouldn't be worth your time.

Mo'Phat · #5 02-17-2009, 01:44 PM

Two things to consider:

1. Listen to Rush, Iron Maiden, and 'older' Metallica to decipher what types of bass playing work melodically with complex guitar riffs. Listen to MudVayne and Tool as well. All have interesting bassists that know how to work around the key.

The Pantera stuff was (more often than not) the bass just following along with the guitar, but that's what worked for them.

2. Tell your guitarist that if he's going to change keys during the solo that you need to know which key he's changing to so you can bridge that transition and change with him. Also, if he's changing up tempos, either he's doing it on purpose (maybe), or doesn't have his internal metronome dialed-in yet (more likely) and is just jamming riffs as fast as possible.

___

In terms of what to play, you need to find the groove. A drummer will come in, listen to the guitar riff, and create a groove with his kick and snare. It will serve you well to think like a drummer to find where you can and shouldn't play notes. This'll help you come up with a unique and rhythmic bassline.

hergor · #6 02-17-2009, 02:02 PM

For the most part when a guitarist solos it is best to stick to a good groove. Usualy you can do this by locking in with your drummer and just repeating the verse till hes done for a great example listen to what sabbath does on paranoid. For tempo changes and things like that its kind of a matter of what works for you and sounds good. I like to drop into a half time feel if my guitarist desides to pick up the tempo this usually creates a good counter point for him to work with. As an added plus it tends to make things feel a little heavier to me. Oh lastly dont feel dumb asking what he is playing many of us cant make out what someone is playing note for note. Better to ask him to write it down for you so you can play around with it who know if you try playing some 3rds or even 7ths in sead of root and 5th you may hit something that turns an ok tune into a bad a@# tune.

Toptube · #7 02-17-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metdistortion

I was thinking of playing just the notes the riffs are based on, leaving the complex add ons to the riffs just to the guitarist.

Setting up a groove to base the music on with the drummer sounds like a good idea in future, except the problem is that the guitarist tries to base the songs around riffs he writes, getting the rest of the band to work around them, which is how our first few songs have been written, and why I am having this problem

3 piece bands are my favorite kind, because it forces everyone to be better and to fill more sections of the music.

In a 3 piece band, the guitarist has to switch between rythm and lead. I think the bassist has to do sort of the same thing, as well. can't just plod out root notes, because you are half the strings section. So, you can kind of take the lead away from him during his rythm and main riff parts, be more melodic and surround the notes, and then sort of pass it back when he's ready to take off in the song.

I've also seen some bands where the bassist will do sort of an alternate solo or alternate rythm while the guitarist is doing a solo.

Audiophage · #8 02-19-2009, 03:30 PM

If you want to really fill up the sound, play more with the drummer than the guitar player.

lousybassplayer · #9 02-22-2009, 10:50 AM

Dude, if you have a pointy black bass thats tuned to drop mud and really long hair (even an old school undershave), you should be fine.

I have had problems like this as well. It is a common problem with bands I have been in that the guitar player writes everything. Melodically, this is fine, but the rhythm section needs to actually construct the song IMO. One thing I have done is have rhythm practice on a different night. Just you and the drummer hash out your parts. If you want to work on stuff the guitar player has written, try playing with some recordings in your spare time too. A lot of the problem I have had is fighting the urge to play cool looking impressive complex lines. Playing by yourself often brings out the better sounding lines I have found. As far as the guitar player's soloing, I would say the switching keys thing should be toned down a bit until you all have a pile of music written together. KISS principle applies big time in the early stages of forming a band.

SuperBassSam · #10 02-26-2009, 08:35 AM

Since you like Pantera, I'm assuming you've heard Floods. Easily one of the greatest guitar solos Dimebag did, but listen closely to what Rex is doing underneath the solo. Also look at the tab, if it helps. He isn't just root noting, he starts adding interesting things like arpeggios and little fills to really make the solo fly. Dimebag has even said the bassline to that song is what makes it stand out not his solo.

Also, I agree with basically the rest of the posters in that you should create some cool basslines that lock in with the drummer, and then your guitarist can come up with riffs over the top of that.

MM playerrrr EB · #11 02-26-2009, 08:54 AM

groove it out dude. sometimes it's good to follow the guitar player. so it looks likehe's following you. maybe if he's doing runs and all you could do them backwards while he's doing them forward. thats what my metal band does with whole tones and harmonic minors and it sounds sexyyyyyyyyyy

try taking some stuff from the fall of troy aswell, they do the EXACT same thing except for more expiremental hardcore style but you'll understand what i mean. if you check them out, listen to the ghostships.