Bb Jazz blues

[iplaybassguitar]

Hey all.
Been a while since Ive posted, and it's good to be back in your company.

I tried searching around, but couldn't find quite what I was looking for.

I'm starting to take practicing a lot more seriously, I've run into some really good advice on how and what to practice, but I'm hitting some speed bumps.


Looking at a Jazz blues, Bb in this example, as I understand it goes like this:

Bb7 Eb7 Bb7 Bb7
Eb7 Eb7 Bb7 D7
C-7 F7 Bb7/D7 C-7/F7

I guess this is a simplified version, some I've seen include more chords, such as the III inserted before the VI, among other variations.
Id like to start by wrapping my head around this simpler version first.

Is the I is always a I7 chord, or is it a I Maj7?
If the I is always I7, then would Ab(the flat 7) be in the key signature as well, or would it just appear as an accidental every time?

I'm also having trouble feeling and hearing the progression once the VI(D7) chord rolls around. This is my main problem. The first 7 bars feels and sounds just like a normal blues, but then when the D7 comes through, it just doesn't make sense in my ears, and Im having trouble finding lines that work through the end of the turn-around back to the top.

[HolmeBass]

D7 is not the VI chord in Bb, it is the III chord, for diatonic it should be iii (Dm7). The diatonic VI in Bb is Gm (or Gm7).

I play a somewhat similar version of a Bb blues, and we definitely go to Gm7 before Cm7, then to F7. The D7 might sound wrong because it is wrong. At the very least try a Dm7.

[iplaybassguitar]

Wow. I was thinking in F for half of this. D is the VI of F. Thanks for pointing that out. Let me try to get this in my head now. I'm pretty sure I'm still gonna be having some troubles even with this brilliant enlightenment that was just bestowed upon me.

[Rusty the Scoob]

That D7 isn't one that I'm used to seeing... but if you want to play it, just treat it as a passing chord that leads a whole step down to the Cm7


As far as the Bb - personally I'd avoid emphasising either 7th note** except for the measures where it's leading directly up to Eb, when you should play Bb7. The Maj7 sounds too "Major-y" and the Bb7 is too dominant - dominant chords on the root don't give you a good enough feeling of a settled tonic.


**You can play either 7th, but make sure they're used as passing notes rather than chord tones

[iplaybassguitar]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

D7 is not the VI chord in Bb, it is the III chord, for diatonic it should be iii (Dm7). The diatonic VI in Bb is Gm (or Gm7).

Right, G instead of D. The page i have here where my teacher wrote out the form goes like this

I7 IV7 I7 I7
IV7 IV7 I7 VI7
ii-7 V7 I7/VI7 ii-7/V7

You said it should be Gm, but the VI from my teacher is just a 7th chord. Which is correct?

[Stick_Player]

You said it should be Gm, but the VI from my teacher is just a 7th chord. Which is correct?

G7 - G Dominant Seventh - G, B, D, F.

It's the dominant of the next chord (C minor) -- V7/ii7.

* * *

By the way, NO Major Seventh chords!

[iplaybassguitar]

thanks. Im clear on the chords and the progession.

Is there anywhere i can find some examples of walking bass likes over this progession? Ive been noodling around it for a while now, and have only found a few good ways through the whole thing.

Im fine with the first half...Ive played a lot of standard blues before, but i could use some advice or help coming up with ideas for how to navigate from the VI through back to the top.

[Russell L]

Actually, ALL the chords CAN be dominat 7 chords, but the ii is usually minor. The D7 is a secondary dominant chord in the key of Bb and could be called "five of six." I'm more used to going to a major VI chord there instead, then do ii-V. Here's what I hear more often:

/ Bb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / Bb7 /

/ Eb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / G7 /

/ Cm7 / F7 / Bb7 G7 / Cm7 F7 /

Try this line for it:

/ Bb D F E / Eb G Ab A / Bb Ab G F / Bb D F E /

/ Eb G Bb C / Eb Db C B / Bb Ab G F / G B D Db /

/ C D Eb E / F Eb D C / Bb D G Db / C Gb F B ://

You'll like this progression better, I think.

[Stick_Player]

Try this line for it:

//: Bb D F E / Eb G Ab A / Bb Ab G F / Bb D F E /

/ Eb G Bb C / Eb Db C B / Bb Ab G F / Bb D G Db /

/ C D Eb E / F Eb D C / Bb D G Db / C Gb F B ://

Leaving everything else as is, change the 8th measure to this:

/ G B D Db /

Or at least play a 'B' instead of a 'Bb'.

This will support the G7 better.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Leaving everything else as is, change the 8th measure to this:

/ G B D Db /

Or at least play a 'B' instead of a 'Bb'.

This will support the G7 better.

Oops, that is exactly what I meant to put there. Thanks for the correction. There's other variations, but I'm glad you heard where I was going. I changed it, and gave you credit.

[Stick_Player]

I changed it, and gave you credit.

I accept PayPal.

[HolmeBass]

Thanks for the clarification of G7 vs Gm7. So even though Gm7 is diatonic to Bb, you use G7 to move to Cm7 because G7 is the dominant of Cm7. Thanks.

[Stumbo]

Here are some links that may help you out on the blues:

5. STYLES
~Blues
Becoming a blues bass player
Blues progressions explained w/ audio samples
Basic lessons/free backing tracks
Getting into the blues
Slow blues
1 "Must know" blues tunes
2

1 Blues jam terms/progressions
2
3

Ice Cream Changes
Backdoor Progression
ii-V-I
more blues

1 First jam
2
3

Gig coming up

Blues bass player's club

Influential musicians (mostly) pre-1959
History and styles
20 important blues recordings & more

"Blues Bass" by TB member Jon Liebman
Ed Friedland's Essential Styles and Techniques
Blues books
"Complete Rhythm Guitar Guide for Blues Bands"
"101 Blues Bass Patterns by Larry McCabe

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Thanks for the clarification of G7 vs Gm7. So even though Gm7 is diatonic to Bb, you use G7 to move to Cm7 because G7 is the dominant of Cm7. Thanks.

Actually, the G7 wasn't chosen because it is the dominant of Cm, it's rather that SINCE IT WAS CHOSEN, it happens to be such.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

I accept PayPal.

Haw, haw, haw.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Actually, the G7 wasn't chosen because it is the dominant of Cm, it's rather that SINCE IT WAS CHOSEN, it happens to be such.

So would Gm7 have been an equally possible choice? That chord even has a Bb in it.

Or is it that the composer wanted the note movement of Bb -> B -> C (in the chords Bb -> G7 -> Cm)?

Do you find that sometimes that the Gm7 is used, or is it always G7 in your experience?

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

So would Gm7 have been an equally possible choice? That chord even has a Bb in it.

Or is it that the composer wanted the note movement of Bb -> B -> C (in the chords Bb -> G7 -> Cm)?

Do you find that sometimes that the Gm7 is used, or is it always G7 in your experience?

I've seen it both ways. I just picked one. If I had to say which is used more, maybe the G7. I've even seen the Cm be C7. Of course, all this is just one progression. There are many more different ones that could be used. Like this:

/ Bb7 / Eb7 / Bb7 / Bb7 E7 /

/ Eb7 / Gb7 / Bb7 Cm7 / Dm7 Db7 /

/ Cm7 / F7 / Bb7 Db7 / Cm7 B7 ://

A nice note line for those last two bars is:

/ Bb F Ab Db / C G F# B /

Note the the Db-chord and B-chord begin with their respective fifths, then hit the root. It's a nice little pattern to play.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by iplaybassguitar

Hey all.
Been a while since Ive posted, and it's good to be back in your company.

I tried searching around, but couldn't find quite what I was looking for.

I'm starting to take practicing a lot more seriously, I've run into some really good advice on how and what to practice, but I'm hitting some speed bumps.


Looking at a Jazz blues, Bb in this example, as I understand it goes like this:

Bb7 Eb7 Bb7 Bb7
Eb7 Eb7 Bb7 D7
C-7 F7 Bb7/D7 C-7/F7

I guess this is a simplified version, some I've seen include more chords, such as the III inserted before the VI, among other variations.
Id like to start by wrapping my head around this simpler version first.

Is the I is always a I7 chord, or is it a I Maj7?
If the I is always I7, then would Ab(the flat 7) be in the key signature as well, or would it just appear as an accidental every time?

I'm also having trouble feeling and hearing the progression once the VI(D7) chord rolls around. This is my main problem. The first 7 bars feels and sounds just like a normal blues, but then when the D7 comes through, it just doesn't make sense in my ears, and Im having trouble finding lines that work through the end of the turn-around back to the top.

You will NEVER see a maj7 chord in blues. It just doesn't happen. The tune would stop being a blues.

Typical progression in Bb: (Eo7 = E diminished 7)


Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7 |

Eb7 | Eo7 | Bb7/F | G-7 |

C-7 | F7 |Bb7 G-7 |C-7 F7 |



That's pretty simple, there are more chords that people like to put in there, but this is the general framework.

Dominant chords other than I IV or V are "secondary dominant" chords. Say if that G-7 in bar 8 was a G7, you would analyze that as V/II (five of two). It temporarily tonicizes the II chord.

If this were a tune with normal functional harmony, ONLY the V chord is a dominant chord to the key. A 7 chord built on the I would be a V/IV (because that chord would resolve to the IV), and a 7 chord built on the IV is V/bVII. That last one is a pretty major change and generally signifies not just a temporary tonicazation but a more long term change in key.

So, in the key of Bb, a D7 is not a III chord, it is V/VI. If it does not resolve to the G-7 (VI chord), then it is still called the V/VI. It does, however, "deceptively resolve" if it goes to any other chord.

[HaVIC5]

You will NEVER see a maj7 chord in blues. It just doesn't happen. The tune would stop being a blues.

Tell that to Charlie Parker. Bebop guys did complete reharms of the blues form, and even with the maj7 it sounds like a blues. Check out Au Privave and Blues for Alice.

So, in the key of Bb, a D7 is not a III chord, it is V/VI. If it does not resolve to the G-7 (VI chord), then it is still called the V/VI. It does, however, "deceptively resolve" if it goes to any other chord.

Pardon my foray into Berklee analysis, but D7 can indeed function as a III7 and not as a deceptively resolving V7/VI if it behaves in the right manner. This is one of the so-called "special function" dominants. III7's special function is to resolve to IV, as in the tune "Someday My Prince Will Come." The ear doesn't hear that as a deceptive resolution, but rather accepts it as another sort of non-dominant cadence.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Tell that to Charlie Parker. Bebop guys did complete reharms of the blues form, and even with the maj7 it sounds like a blues. Check out Au Privave and Blues for Alice.



Pardon my foray into Berklee analysis, but D7 can indeed function as a III7 and not as a deceptively resolving V7/VI if it behaves in the right manner. This is one of the so-called "special function" dominants. III7's special function is to resolve to IV, as in the tune "Someday My Prince Will Come." The ear doesn't hear that as a deceptive resolution, but rather accepts it as another sort of non-dominant cadence.

(What does Berklee have to do with it?).

You're both right, but what Snarf said is more "in general." No hard rules here. I've heard III7s go to ii, or anywhere. Georgia On My Mind sounds like blues (or feels like it, that is), but uses major 7s (or can sometimes, depending on the arranger).

It's been said to not play the leading tone in blues solos unless it's a passing note, but it gets into the V-chord.