Beginnning Learning Advise for an Advanced Player

**iriegnome** · #1 11-23-2009, 03:11 PM

I have been around. Self taught player. I have been playing for 30 years. Now it is time to learn. My only problem is I don't even know where to start.
I have played and toured all over the country. I have played 30,000 seat venues. Been on 3 month long tours.
Now I am not growing as a player anymore and it is time...
I want to learn theory. Modes. Chord structure. I need to learn what I missed by playing. I know I can play. I can play pretty good.
I have read a lot on TB about beginners and learning and instruction for the new bass player. Well, I am not a new bass player. I need to figure out how to wrap my head around 30 years of playing and being a player. I need some help to figure out how to learn beginning technique/theory as an advanced player. I am bassically starting from scratch and I know I have to unlearn some bad habbits as well.
Please - I am looking for advise on how to unlearn/relearn and retrain my brain to play with more theory as opposed to more feel. Oh, I can play, I just want to know what I am playing now.
Thanks for any help and any suggestions.

fender_funk_man · #2 11-23-2009, 03:25 PM

Well you have 2 sides to this.

1) Theory: You can learn theory a bunch of different ways. I recommend jazz for this. Jazz solidified my theory like nothing else. It really depends on how you learn. If your a good book work there are tons of good theory books. I needed to take classes and play guitar to make it all make sense.

2) Technique is a different problem. This is going to be really hard. You have thirty years of muscle memory controlling your playing. I dont really see an easy solution for this so I recommend a teacher. My teacher has an excellent method for re-learning technique. If your interested I can send you his website. He may be willing to give you a few sessions just on your technique.

fender_funk_man · #3 11-23-2009, 03:25 PM

OR he would point you in the right direction for what to look for in a teacher.

**251** · #4 11-23-2009, 04:24 PM

Perhaps you need a music tutor? Tutors teach you the music in an organized way but, will take time for your questions & build a group of lessons to take you where you want/need to go or explore a point in depth. I suggest you study with a tutor who covers on bass but has a different primary instrument. That way your lessons become duets & you get to hear & play the music. Get a recorder so you can listen to the last lesson(s) while preparing for the next one. Find a music studio that offers Ensemble music lessons, you will have a ready group of players at about your level to jam with.

Do you have something like that near you in Kenosha?

Good luck

unclejane · #5 11-23-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriegnome

I have been around. Self taught player. I have been playing for 30 years. Now it is time to learn. My only problem is I don't even know where to start.
I have played and toured all over the country. I have played 30,000 seat venues. Been on 3 month long tours.
Now I am not growing as a player anymore and it is time...
I want to learn theory. Modes. Chord structure. I need to learn what I missed by playing. I know I can play. I can play pretty good.
I have read a lot on TB about beginners and learning and instruction for the new bass player. Well, I am not a new bass player. I need to figure out how to wrap my head around 30 years of playing and being a player. I need some help to figure out how to learn beginning technique/theory as an advanced player. I am bassically starting from scratch and I know I have to unlearn some bad habbits as well.
Please - I am looking for advise on how to unlearn/relearn and retrain my brain to play with more theory as opposed to more feel. Oh, I can play, I just want to know what I am playing now.
Thanks for any help and any suggestions.

I'd be curious about what habits you have that you think are bad?
I went through this just recently, having found some truly bad technique problems after 25 years of playing...

LS

MalcolmAmos · #6 11-23-2009, 06:18 PM

Theory - where to start? As everything we do in the Western World revolves around the Major scale I'd send you there. So take a look at this http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11975 The post was written for 6 string guitar - ignore the top two strings on the patterns it takes you to.

Then help yourself to the Articles in the upper left side of the screen. Some great articles at that site. Theory is theory whether it's used on 4 strings or trombone. True you apply it differently, but, the basic theory of music applies to each instrument. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/browse/index.php?ltr=A

Print off several articles, find an easy chair, and start reading....... If you have questions the guys/gals on the forum at ibreathmusic.com will always help.

Good luck.

**251** · #7 11-24-2009, 09:18 AM

Wow Malcolm, that is a stunning collection of information! + the point of view, European, is fresh for me.

GTG, much to read.

gregmerrill · #8 11-24-2009, 09:23 AM

For your harmony learn jazz. Learn to read chords. Learn the walking bass line

**iriegnome** · #9 11-24-2009, 11:48 AM

One of the biggest errors I know that i make - If I am playing in A, for me, I will do a run and hit the G instead of the G#.. It drives all 3 of my guitarists nuts and I do it without concious thought. Sometimes, now that I know I do this, I will play a low note A and a G on the D string on purpose just to mess with the guitarist to my immediate side!

**iriegnome** · #10 11-24-2009, 11:54 AM

Actually this last year I just started learning major scales and their notes. Never used them before.. Always played by feel, ear and root note.

BobaFret · #11 11-24-2009, 12:01 PM

Minus 10 years and quite a few audience members less I'm in the same boat more or less. What has been good for me to start with is working with chords and chord tones and how they are made up. Arpeggios are also great. The modes and scales should come much easier IMO when these are second nature.

**iriegnome** · #12 11-24-2009, 12:35 PM

From what I have read. We need to start with 1/3's... Minor is 3 and Major is 4 of them...
THat is kind of where I am going to start to learn about chord structures. I guess my band play's in 7 chords and I have to get to that point..

MalcolmAmos · #13 11-25-2009, 06:04 AM

This is for 251.

Notice in your profile you are a rag man. No Tears, a P-15 West Wight Potter has been sitting at our dock since 2000. http://www.westwightpotter.com/ We live on a small lake in East Texas. Looks like you may get some blue water sailing in, interested in with what, where and when.

Bruce Lindfield · #14 11-25-2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fender_funk_man

Well you have 2 sides to this.

1) Theory: You can learn theory a bunch of different ways. I recommend jazz for this. Jazz solidified my theory like nothing else. It really depends on how you learn. If your a good book work there are tons of good theory books. I needed to take classes and play guitar to make it all make sense.
.

Funnily - I was going to mention Jazz!!

So - I remember talking to a guy I met at my local Jazz club. He was a drummer who had toured the US playing stadium tours and doing huge rock gigs.

But then he came home to the UK and decided he wanted to learn more and went to a well-regarded drum tutor, who told him to get into Jazz!!

That is - go to gigs and listen to what the drummers do in small Jazz groups and eventually join a Jazz group and play with them!

**251** · #15 11-25-2009, 07:00 AM

Hi Malcolm, I am blessed with small lakes to the West & salt water to the East. We have chartered (S2-30 & Catalina-36) on Lake Champlain, poke around a small artificial lake West of Worcester MA in a MacGregor 19 Catamaran, trailered an AMF Catfish, 13' Cat around MA (I once took it out into 3 footers off Scituate & stretched the rigging) & cruised Down East as far as Rockport/Camden ME in an Islander 28. The overnight legs to Portland and Rockport are very special memories of piloting without GPS, fishing boats, dolphin pods, whales & sunrise through the mist.

I still can't afford a hole in the water for my $$. The boats all belong to friends. Owning a Maine Cat 30 is on my bucket list.

The West Wight has a reputation as a forgiving, stable, easy boat. Tell me about her.

MalcolmAmos · #16 11-25-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 251

The West Wight has a reputation as a forgiving, stable, easy boat. Tell me about her.

Yes the Potter is a great boat, I slack off above 15 degrees, but she'll take 30 degrees. I'm not a white knuckle sailor. Great one man boat, two for a day sail is enjoyable, however, two in the cabin is a little close. No Tears sits in the water at the dock all year just waiting on me. I haul her out every other year for new bottom paint - it's of course fresh water and no marine growth just scum buildup. I bought her with visions of sailing her down the Inter-Coastal from Galveston to Brownsville and back - you can get on a reach and go for miles - but health issues put the kiddious on those plans. Now we just sail Spring Lake here in East Texas. It's a 35 acre private lake with 14 homes scattered around the shore.

The Wife and I enjoy a late afternoon sail around the lake where we grade and toast the sunset. Winters are mild so I just leave her in the water.

Why the name No Tears? The Potter is actually No Tears II, I built the first No Tears from scratch. There was a lot of sweat, some blood, but no tears involved in the building process. The original No Tears developed dry rot around the keel about the time I retired, so No Tears II came to live with us.

To keep the mods happy - yes I do strum the old acoustic on her sometime.

mambo4 · #17 11-25-2009, 01:55 PM

My usual cut n paste response, with Mods by JTE....

Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play under various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

1dgbass · #18 11-25-2009, 02:08 PM

http://www.studybass.com/

joroched · #19 11-26-2009, 09:12 AM

As a point of perspective, which you may appreciate, I learned theory in order to pick up a bass guitar. Aparentley backwards thinking, except for this thread. I've studied hard and long to apply theory to the bass frett board, and could go on about the seven modes, plus the pentatonics, blues, augmented, and diminished scales,and how that applies to arpeggios, ( chord construction ) from what I looked up on various web sites, and bought the Bass Grimoire book. I can only guess that I can kind of play the bass. From what I understand about pros, it's all about the feel

**iriegnome** · #20 11-26-2009, 10:15 AM

It is all about the feel, but what I am finding (especially in my band) that since we play jams (free form stuff) I will need to know where to take a progresson more that to a 1-4-5 or 1-3-5. If I want to get deeply into what I do, I have to expand my actual knowledge since I all ready can play by feel. Again, correcting the problems that I learned early on