Berlin Wall Between Academics and Art

[JeffBerlin]

I thought to start up here again and see if anyone wishes to find out about my belief in the separation of academics and art. It is a pretty firm separation that I subscribe to because so few people know about academic learning of bass, while almost everybody can play artfull, with feeling and meaning, even if they don't exactly know how to play!

So, let the fun begin! Welcome to the newest JB thread! Ask anything whatsoever that you wish. Thanks!

[Fergie Fulton]

Start you off with a link, art or academic application, what's the difference?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM:)

[finalrequiem]

Subscribed... Jimmy isn't here for me to argue with yet

[PlanetEarth]

Carrying this over here since the other closed out right after..... And it seems relevant at some level....

Originally Posted by PlanetEarth

Not in response to anything, just sharing: I'd say OT but there's really no topic anyway.

Loosely quoting another great bassist who shares the same sort of international recognition over a very long career as does Jeff:

".... once you get an understanding of the academics of music it is truly a liberating experience to be able to express yourself musically, it's a love like no other I've known"

What I love about this is the unassuming manner in which the academics is referred to as a precursor. In other words, it never even occurred to the author that anyone wishing to pursue this craft and/or express themselves musically would consider anything less than total emergence into all the knowledge to be had.

BTW: It's Brian, since I presume to call you Jeff....

-PE

[Commreman]

Will there be a Reaganesque presence on talkbass that will state (and I'm paraphrasing) "Mr. Berlin, JimmyM, tear down this wall!"

All kidding aside, this has been a very healthy and illuminating debate. I'm on the side, except in the case of rare prodigies, that academics precedes art.

[southpaw76]

You have to know the language before you can express yourself in conversation.

For instance, I know players that have natural talent and the potential to be great but due to there limited understanding of music, they tend to be redundant. In other words, it's like a writer or story teller doing his or her thing with a limited vocabulary.

sp

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by finalrequiem

Subscribed... Jimmy isn't here for me to argue with yet

Jimmy and I made up! He and I are talking stuff out and we both want to be nice, even as we chat from possibly different places. He's cool and doesn't show up here in a sarcastic or unhelpful capacity. I try to do the same with him!

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by Commreman

Will there be a Reaganesque presence on talkbass that will state (and I'm paraphrasing) "Mr. Berlin, JimmyM, tear down this wall!"

All kidding aside, this has been a very healthy and illuminating debate. I'm on the side, except in the case of rare prodigies, that academics precedes art.

Well, it might be a good idea to look at things from the other side. Show me where a great artist didn't start out learning via academics. Even a blues player at the beginning has to learn their instrument!

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by PlanetEarth

Carrying this over here since the other closed out right after..... And it seems relevant at some level....



BTW: It's Brian, since I presume to call you Jeff....

-PE

Well said Brian!

Please call me Your Lordship! Or My Leige would go down nicely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drteeth]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

Well, it might be a good idea to look at things from the other side. Show me where a great artist didn't start out learning via academics. Even a blues player at the beginning has to learn their instrument!

I just finished a Jimi Hendrikx biography, and I have to conclude he has not had an academic lesson in his life.

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by southpaw76

You have to know the language before you can express yourself in conversation.

For instance, I know players that have natural talent and the potential to be great but due to there limited understanding of music, they tend to be redundant. In other words, it's like a writer or story teller doing his or her thing with a limited vocabulary.

sp

In fact, everyone over here on Talkbass who espresses their feelings as creatively as they can via the written word are actually using skills that they academically learned as kids in school! Academics DID come first and every letter written and posted on Talkbass shows this!


WOW!

You DO have to know the grammar before you can use it! There it is! The more profound that one expresses their passion in a subject, the more that they are demonstrating their skills in a language that once was unfamiliar to them until they academically learned how to write in school. The proof that we were looking for is in each expressive letter written on these pages. Academics DID come first!

Wow! This might be the capper to the whole question about the separation between art and academics! Anybody else see this?

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

I thought to start up here again and see if anyone wishes to find out about my belief in the separation of academics and art. It is a pretty firm separation that I subscribe to because so few people know about academic learning of bass, while almost everybody can play artfull, with feeling and meaning, even if they don't exactly know how to play!

So, let the fun begin! Welcome to the newest JB thread! Ask anything whatsoever that you wish. Thanks!

Hello Sir,

I did not read the pages and pages of the other thread...

Could you define what you mean by 'academics', and what you mean by 'art'? (Is there not an art to academics?)

--

By your phrase "anyone cam play artful, with feeling and meaning.", well hold on, beginner players can do that, until they have their passions and spark of life crushed and smothered by an overly rigid, lifeless and sterile academic bureaucracy, suited for creating drones to fill 19th century factories. ...




Really, just some definitions can help.

thanks,

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by drteeth

I just finished a Jimi Hendrikx biography, and I have to conclude he has not had an academic lesson in his life.

No, Jimi Hendrix was self taught. But he needed to learn the guitar first before he could play the blues.

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

Well said Brian!

Please call me Your Lordship! Or My Leige would go down nicely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you meant "Liege", ya know, that whole ' i before e except after ...." thing, your Lordship... LOL!

-PE

[drteeth]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

No, Jimi Hendrix was self taught. But he needed to learn the guitar first before he could play the blues.

That is true, but he never learned it academically, in the settings / manners you hold high.

P.S. I actually agree with the gist of what you are saying, but it is too much fun to come up with examples when asked for it.

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Hello Sir,

I did not read the pages and pages of the other thread...

Could you define what you mean by 'academics', and what you mean by 'art'? (Is there not an art to academics?)

--

By your phrase "anyone cam play artful, with feeling and meaning.", well hold on, beginner players can do that, until they have their passions and spark of life crushed and smothered by an overly rigid, lifeless and sterile academic bureaucracy, suited for creating drones to fill 19th century factories. ...




Really, just some definitions can help.

thanks,

Academics are those things that are learned, that comform to set rules or standards. Facts, and irrefutable content falls into this definition as well.

Art is defined by one on-line dictionary as "the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance."

In other words, they are not the same and they do not relate!

[bassybill]

There's a huge difference betwen being self-taught and untaught.

A lot of academic learning is self-taught in every field.

[Road Hat]

I'm a huge proponent of formal music academics, and applaud your efforts Jeff to further this time proven method of learning the common music language. It's universal! I can sit down with a musician from another country, neither of us knowing a word of the other's tongue, and we can relate at a deep, emotional level through reading/performing a written score. I can't think of many other communication tools that are this powerful, both for performer and audience alike.

Jeff, do you see points of intersection between academics and art? For example, I used to practice diligently as a youth to master a passage (academics), and delighted in performing it for family and friends (academics and art). When you teach a class on theory, do you have 'fun' breaks? When I had to perform recitals in school, it was always **such** serious business. I know it's important to demonstrate mastery of one's instrument, but couldn't they funk it up just a little bit? Frankly, I do think that's one of the problems with academics, but that doesn't obviate its need.

Regarding assertive music teachers and band leaders who would browbeat us into musical submission - in many ways, it was no different than playing sports, except that you didn't get your head smashed in and have to run miles a day! Yep, they often acted like tyrants, and made us feel an inch tall, but when we got on stage, we could PLAY! In today's politically correct world, it's doubtful that music educators that demanded this level of excellence would last long. Someone would get their feelings hurt...sniff, sniff. I'm not saying they should all be Buddy Rich, but a drill is a drill, and it's either right or not. Someone should have the baton and not be afraid to use it!

Oh yeah, and then Art is where you get the girls...

[JeffBerlin]

Originally Posted by drteeth

That is true, but he never learned it academically, in the settings / manners you hold high.

P.S. I actually agree with the gist of what you are saying, but it is too much fun to come up with examples when asked for it.

I agree. Here's my best shot at this time (my mind is mush after a full day of practicing and teaching).

If one chooses to teach themselves, then they are beholden to nothing or no one to guide their progress, if they so choose. But since so many people seek out teachers, DVD's schools, camps, intensives, programs, that is, paying money to receive a musical education, then the situation changes and the students are required to receive more than they now are mostly receiving. Basically, my points is these; 1. if you pay for a music then you darned well better get your money's worth, and 2. academics are not the same as art.

If you teach yourself then all's fair!

[southpaw76]

Originally Posted by JeffBerlin

In fact, everyone over here on Talkbass who espresses their feelings as creatively as they can via the written word are actually using skills that they academically learned as kids in school! Academics DID come first and every letter written and posted on Talkbass shows this!


WOW!

You DO have to know the grammar before you can use it! There it is! The more profound that one expresses their passion in a subject, the more that they are demonstrating their skills in a language that once was unfamiliar to them until they academically learned how to write in school. The proof that we were looking for is in each expressive letter written on these pages. Academics DID come first!

Wow! This might be the capper to the whole question about the separation between art and academics! Anybody else see this?

Thanks Jeff, I am glad my analogy made sense. I thought I was going nuts there for a minute.

sp