Between the bb7 & the root...?

[Chupacabra]

What do you call the "7th" that sits between the bb7 & the root of a diminshed scale? In the W-H-dim scale there's a "natural" or "major" 7th note (B in the case of the Cdim scale) & in the H-W-dim scale, there's a "dominant" or "minor" 7th (Bb!).

So do we just call them dim7 - dom7/maj7 - root or is there some other fancy name for the degrees of an 8-note scale?

I've been doing the chord tone exercises & the bb7 makes perfect sense - the scale degrees are what I'm not 100% sure of.

Thanks in advance

[Cloverfield]

I'm not sure I exactly understand what you're asking. What exactly are you asking? It might help if you numbered your questions one after the other in a list of some sort.

The two octatonic scales you're referring to -- the half-whole and whole-half scales -- are used primarily over dominant and diminished harmony, respectively.

[MalcolmAmos]

When you harmonize the melodic and harmonic minor scale you get the full diminished bb7 spelling. I think that is what you are asking. The Bm7b5 would be R-b3-b5-b7 or a half diminished chord - diminished circle with a line through it - but that's just my name for them . Those are just names I've come up with.

Diminished dim (° ) 1-b3-b5 I call this a diminished chord.
Minor seven flat fifth m7-5 or ø 1-b3-b5-b7 I call this a half diminished chord.
Diminished Seventh dim7 (°7) 1-b3-b5-bb7 I call this a full diminished chord.

[Billnc]

I've always thought of them as major 7th or minor 7th and diminished seventh (or 13th depending on context) Never read more into them than that. Jim Hall changes the spelling of the same note when working through diminshed scales, i.e. the material used to solo over 'Careful'.

[HaVIC5]

In Berklee notation the whole/half diminished scale is 1 T9 b3 T11 b5 Tb13 bb7 Tmaj7. Technically speaking, it's not a major 7 at all, but rather a major 15, which is how you would keep with the 7 note name nomenclature above the octave in an octatonic system, but calling a note a 15th is a little too exotic and odd for most people, and so just calling it the major 7 is what everybody does. How would you react if you saw a Cdim7(15) chord on a lead sheet?

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

In Berklee notation the whole/half diminished scale is 1 T9 b3 T11 b5 Tb13 bb7 Tmaj7. Technically speaking, it's not a major 7 at all, but rather a major 15, which is how you would keep with the 7 note name nomenclature above the octave in an octatonic system, but calling a note a 15th is a little too exotic and odd for most people, and so just calling it the major 7 is what everybody does. How would you react if you saw a Cdim7(15) chord on a lead sheet?

I don't see how your getting major 15th.

I'd buy diminished 15th, or major 14th. Depending on the enharmonic spelling. I guess.

If for no other reason than to make life simpler I just call a major 7th a major 7th, and a minor 7th a minor 7th.

[Chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Billnc

I've always thought of them as major 7th or minor 7th and diminished seventh (or 13th depending on context) Never read more into them than that. Jim Hall changes the spelling of the same note when working through diminshed scales, i.e. the material used to solo over 'Careful'.

Thanks, I think that answers the question I guess I may have been trying to read more into it.

I'm not sure I exactly understand what you're asking. What exactly are you asking? It might help if you numbered your questions one after the other in a list of some sort.

I'm looking for the name of the scale degree i.e, in a major scale you have R, M2, M3, P4, P5, M6, M7, R - a minor R, M2, b3, P4, P5, b6, b7, R.

For the W-H diminished they'd be R, M2, b3, P4, b5, b6, bb7, "??", R. I guess the "??" is just referred to as M7 in this case? I just wondered if there might be another "special" name for the extra 7th.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

I don't see how your getting major 15th.

I'd buy diminished 15th, or major 14th. Depending on the enharmonic spelling. I guess.

If for no other reason than to make life simpler I just call a major 7th a major 7th, and a minor 7th a minor 7th.

I'm sorry, my mistake, I meant diminished 15th. It's a diminished octave displaced an octave.

For the W-H diminished they'd be R, M2, b3, P4, b5, b6, bb7, "??", R. I guess the "??" is just referred to as M7 in this case? I just wondered if there might be another "special" name for the extra 7th.

Because the number system (1 2 3 4 5 etc) references the heptatonic major scale, it's not going to be a perfect translation into the octatonic diminished system, and basically, we just have to live with calling it a major 7th. It's more important to understand, however, that within functional chord progressions the diminished 7th is the functional seventh and the major 7 is a coloring tension.

[Chupacabra]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I'm sorry, my mistake, I meant diminished 15th. It's a diminished octave displaced an octave.



Because the number system (1 2 3 4 5 etc) references the heptatonic major scale, it's not going to be a perfect translation into the octatonic diminished system, and basically, we just have to live with calling it a major 7th. It's more important to understand, however, that within functional chord progressions the diminished 7th is the functional seventh and the major 7 is a coloring tension.

Thanks, that's cleared it up

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

IIt's more important to understand, however, that within functional chord progressions the diminished 7th is the functional seventh and the major 7 is a coloring tension.

This is really the crux of the biscuit, and the kind of thing that is most often overlooked when talking about music theory on this forum.

What something is called is really pretty trivial, the important part is how it works in the context of whatever musical logic you are dealing with.

Take the half-whole diminished scale. Off the top of my head I can interpret the function of those 8 notes a bunch of different ways:

-it's a dominant 7th chord with both altered 9ths, a sharp 11 and a natural 13

-it's a diminished 7th chord with chromatic approach tones above each chord tone

-it's two diminished 7th chords a semitone apart

-it's a symmetrical intervallic pattern that doesn't have any particular reference to functional harmony

-it's four dominant 7th chords, stacked in minor thirds.

Depending on the underlying logic of the music at hand a particular member of that intervallic pattern may have a few different names. This is often the case with almost any non-trivial musical example but especially when you start dealing with the kind of symmetrical patterns a scale like this gives you. Messiaen wrote a great deal on the subject, he considered what we are calling the diminished scales members of a family of what he called 'modes of limited transposition'.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

Take the half-whole diminished scale. Off the top of my head I can interpret the function of those 8 notes a bunch of different ways:

-it's a dominant 7th chord with both altered 9ths, a sharp 11 and a natural 13

-it's a diminished 7th chord with chromatic approach tones above each chord tone

-it's two diminished 7th chords a semitone apart

-it's a symmetrical intervallic pattern that doesn't have any particular reference to functional harmony

-it's four dominant 7th chords, stacked in minor thirds.

Depending on the underlying logic of the music at hand a particular member of that intervallic pattern may have a few different names.

In other words highly useful. Your first and last examples I've used more often than others personally.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

What do you call the "7th" that sits between the bb7 & the root of a diminshed scale? In the W-H-dim scale there's a "natural" or "major" 7th note (B in the case of the Cdim scale) & in the H-W-dim scale, there's a "dominant" or "minor" 7th (Bb!).

So do we just call them dim7 - dom7/maj7 - root or is there some other fancy name for the degrees of an 8-note scale?

I've been doing the chord tone exercises & the bb7 makes perfect sense - the scale degrees are what I'm not 100% sure of.

Thanks in advance

It is called a major7. Actually it is specified sometimes in the chord symbol Co (add7) or even better to avoid confusion the name of the note to add like this in the case of Co: Co (add B).

Just a reminder:1) When we use only the circle, it is only a triad, then we specified the color by adding a 7 to symbol "o" for a real diminished. 2) We change the "o" for a min7(b5) for a half-diminished chord or 3) We add a specific note to add to the diminished chord like in the case of the Maj7 or an other note that is not in the basic chord.

Hope this will help to clarify,

Sly

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

When you harmonize the melodic and harmonic minor scale you get the full diminished bb7 spelling. I think that is what you are asking. The Bm7b5 would be R-b3-b5-b7 or a half diminished chord - diminished circle with a line through it - but that's just my name for them . Those are just names I've come up with.

Diminished dim (° ) 1-b3-b5 I call this a diminished chord.
Minor seven flat fifth m7-5 or ø 1-b3-b5-b7 I call this a half diminished chord.
Diminished Seventh dim7 (°7) 1-b3-b5-bb7 I call this a full diminished chord.

You are correct.

Know this: a major interval that is lowered two half-steps is called diminished. So, even though a bb7 is the same sound as a 6th, it is called a dim. 7.

Cmaj. 7 = C E G B
C7 = C E G Bb
Cm7 = C Eb G Bb
Cm7b5 = C Eb Gb Bb
C dim.7 = C Eb Gb Bbb