Bite the bullet and learn it??

[rydin4lifebass]

I've been taking lessons and learning songs for two years or so and throwing in some theory here and there but I don't have a solid foundation. I bought a country bass theory book and I thought it would be simple but it starts out with the modes of scales right off the bat. I can only play a scale in "pattern 7" or the box pattern I guess its called but my instructor is pushing me to learn all 7 patterns and to be knowlegable of scales and their modes...is it just time I bite the bullet and go head first and learn this stuff?

[stepswork4me]

Might as well, dude. Here I am 22 years after starting to play and wanting to learn this stuff.

[jmattbassplaya]

I'd ask him to introduce you to a chordal/arpeggio approach to music before modes. Modes really aren't that important or useful for a novice bassist, but arpeggios can be applied almost immediately.

[rydin4lifebass]

We have gone over some arpeggio things before but i always get off track and want to learn "this" song or "that" song...so I need to focus on theory to feel like I actually "get it"...

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

We have gone over some arpeggio things before but i always get off track and want to learn "this" song or "that" song...so I need to focus on theory to feel like I actually "get it"...

I understand, and as your first step into learning theory I highly suggest you continue on studying arpeggios

[bigboy_78]

What are your goals as a musician?

Will knowing all the modes and scales help you to achieve those goals?

[rydin4lifebass]

Honestly, I just want to be a good player and to be able to hear a song and once I know what key its in, to play along....to jump in a jam session and be able to play and to understand what I'm playing and why. For me to understand and be comfortable with things, I need to understand they "why"...If I didn't study modes/scales, etc...what would be my alternate path?

[younggun]

Modes, arpreggios, scales, and chords are all the same thing in the end. Study a progressive system. It'll cover everything in the end, and it'll take about 3-4 years to get the basics of it down. So yes, quit jumping around and willy-nilly doing this and that. If you get the basics of theory in your head and under your fingers, it will benefit you tremendously in the long run. Think 10 years down the line, not the next week.

[rydin4lifebass]

I think that's kinda what I needed to hear younggun...we went through the progressive bass book and now I have a blues bass by Ed Friedland and a Country bass book as well...along with the grimoire...so I gotta hit that theory and get it down..like you said, once I have that, it will put a lot of the other stuff I have problems with into place.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

Honestly, I just want to be a good player and to be able to hear a song and once I know what key its in, to play along....to jump in a jam session and be able to play and to understand what I'm playing and why. For me to understand and be comfortable with things, I need to understand they "why"...If I didn't study modes/scales, etc...what would be my alternate path?

Chords/arpeggios

There are two main approaches to theory - a scalar/modal approach and a chordal/arpeggio approach. As already mentioned, they're all the same at the end of the day, but the difference is the way in which you approach the material.

To me, a chordal approach is much easier for players beginning to get into theory. It takes a lot of the scalar stuff and simplifies it into more manageable chunks, because instead of looking at entire scales you're just looking at chord tones.

It's also a lot more applicable because guitar players and keyboard players will call out chords when jamming - not modes. So after a few weeks of working on chordal theory you'll already be able to step up your playing in a jam more than you would with modes.

Of course, this is all IMHO. I started with modes and honestly got nowhere with them. I eventually switched to chords and instantly got better at improvising lines and learning songs by ear. And with my chordal basis of theory, I'm now able to see modes and their applications much more easily.

[MalcolmAmos]

The guys are pushing you toward chords and arpeggios. Here is why.

Scales - so our fingers know where to go and our ears know the good notes from the bad notes. Scales are a passage thing. You gotta do your scales as every thing we do starts with the major scale.

             Major Scale Box. 

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Modes - are another story. Modes are a melody thing. Are you getting lead breaks, do you need to play the tune's melody? If not you certainly do not need modes. Modes are for the lead guitar guys. Sounds like your bass instructor is an old lead guitar guy. One of these days modes will enter your life, but, you have a whole bunch of stuff you need to learn first. The major scale and it's pentatonic along with the natural minor scale and it's pentatonic will give you all the scales you need right now.

Chords aka Arpeggios - as we are an accompaniment instrument and a rhythm section instrument at that we need to provide the bottom end rhythm. That comes from the chord tones. What is a chord tone? R-3-5-7 are the chord tones (notes) of the Cmaj7 chord. Playing in 4/4 time the C chord's tones are R-3-5 + something to fill out the last beat in 4/4 1/4 note rhythm. R-3-5-8 makes a good choice. See any major chord R-3-5-8 will work. See a minor chord R-b3-5-8 will work. Now that is not rocket science. Place the root note correctly and play the box - the notes you need are always in the same spot - let the major scale box work for you.

So as has been said, chord tones and arpeggios need to be in muscle memory. See a Cmaj7 chord and your fingers automatically know what to do next. Some where between just the root note and R-3-5-7 lies a pretty good bass line for that Cmaj7 chord. The song dictates how full you need to make that bass line.

Recapping: Scales to get your fingers moving and your ear recognizing the good and the bad notes. Scale intervals so we know what notes are needed to build the chord we need to play. And modes ---- not really needed right now. Chord tone and how to use them in a song should be part of your lessons right now. Of course IMO.

You gotta trust your instructor and do as he/she says, however, I'd be asking him/her why modes are necessary right now.

Good luck.

[rydin4lifebass]

Thanks guys. I know this has been covered a million times on here so thanks for you patience. Let's say we're talking G Mixolydian, which is really the same notes as the CMajor scale with the root shifted to the G...Wouldn't saying 1) Use G Mixolydian and 2) Use C Major and start on G...be the same thing? I guess what I'm looking for is the point here..why have two different names for the same thing?

Also..the first few pages in my country book go from C Major to C Mixolydian to C Dorian..any reason for those specific ones? In this case, C Mix is F major with the root shifted to C, and with C as the root, B is in the 7th position which is a B flat in F Major...

[vishalicious]

Hi Rydin. You have about 4X the experience that I have (I've been learning for about 1/2 a year, on and off) but I hope I can still offer some insight into some of the scale stuff.

Everything that MalcolmAmos said above is right. Actually, everything that I've ever read on TalkBass from members like him, JTE and Fergie Fulton have been pure gold. When I practice scales (I'm slow, so I've only really focused on the major and natural minor) I practice their triads at the same time. Basically, if I play a scale pattern a few times to work it into muscle memory, I take a minute's break and then do the same thing with its triad right after. I really believe that they go hand-in-hand. They help you to understand each other's construction. The surprising thing for me when I started doing this was that several scales have the same triads (root-3rd-5th). I'd read and understood this, but when practicing, it really brought it home.

But, anyway, I grabbed Bass Guitar Exercises for Dummies a month or so ago. Its a companion workbook to Bass Guitar for Dummies (3rd edition). Both books discuss scales and chords, but it was interesting to see them in BGE for Dummies because I was able to more easily look at the patterns to see the differences.

Those scales, like Dorian, actually have different patterns from each other. Sometimes, its just one note. Other times its more, but its not just the same pattern on a different root. They have small differences in note/interval composition. I'm sure that the box patterns for all of them can be found on the internet, but the book is helpful to have as well, especially if you like going over snippets on the couch after dinner.

[bigboy_78]

You're looking at it the wrong way.

C mix is a C major scale with a flat 7th - ignore the fact that is essentially the same notes as an F major scale.

C dorian is a C major scale with a flat 3rd and a flat 7.

In the context you are looking at, you don't really need to understand modes. Its more important that you know a dom7 chord has a flat 7 and a min7 chord has flat 3 & 7.

You do need to know the major scale inside out though, or you will never be able to understand how & why chords are formed.

[MalcolmAmos]

OK understand there are two different ways of learning modes. Relative modes where the notes stay the same and you start on a different tonic note, for example:

Ionian C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
Dorian .....D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
Phrygian.......E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
etc. etc. etc.
This is easy to teach and most teach this way. I find it confusing and hard to actually use in a song.

Then there is parallel modes or pitch axis where the notes change and the key stays the same. For example:

Ionian....... R, 2, 3, ..4, 5, 6, 7 ----- C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Lydian....... R, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7 ------C, D, E, F#, G, A, B
Mixolydian.. R, 2, 3, ...4, 5, 6, b7 ---- C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb
Notice the major modes are based upon the major scale and one note changes. Want Lydian sharp the 4. Want Mixolydian flat the 7.

Aeolian.... R, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 --- C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb
Dorian.... R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7 ----- C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb
Phrygian.. R, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7--- C Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb
Locrian.... R, 2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 --- C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb
All the minor modes are based upon the natural minor scale and one note changes. Two with Locrian. Want Dorian take the natural minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. Want Phrygian, take the natural minor scale and flat the 2. And if you ever wanted Locrian then you flat the 2 and the 5.

Now to your questions:

=Thanks guys. I know this has been covered a million times on here so thanks for you patience. Let's say we're talking G Mixolydian, which is really the same notes as the CMajor scale with the root shifted to the G...Wouldn't saying 1) Use G Mixolydian and 2) Use C Major and start on G...be the same thing? I guess what I'm looking for is the point here..why have two different names for the same thing?

Good question. Why not say use C Mixolydian which would be the C major scale with a flatted 7. Once I understood parallel modes I never went back to relative modes. I find it much easier to use in songs.

Also..the first few pages in my country book go from C Major to C Mixolydian to C Dorian..any reason for those specific ones? In this case, C Mix is F major with the root shifted to C, and with C as the root, B is in the 7th position which is a B flat in F Major...

Major scale (Ionian) is used quite a lot. It is after all THE MAJOR SCALE.
Mixolydian is used a lot also. Lydian is so much like Ionian it is usually ignored.
Dorian is the minor choice. Aeolian is just too sad, and Phrygian is too exotic. Dorian gives a nice minor sound. So those three modes are used the most and that is why they were highlighted in your book. IMHO.

It all works out to the same notes however you go. Using the relative D Dorian .....D, E, F, G, A, B, C and comparing this to THE D MAJOR scale ....D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# if you take the D Major scale and flat the F# and the C#, i.e. the 3rd and 7th you end up with the same notes which ever way you go. I find it easier to just memorize; Want Dorian, OK Dorian has a b3 and b7.

Everyone has their way of doing modes. If you are using an instructor and he likes relative then go relative. If you think parallel is easier, ask if you can use this method. As I said earlier, once I knew about parallel I never went back to relative. But, if you change the way you think about modes it is a paradigm shift no going back and forth. Decide on one and stick with it.

[wrench45us]

the modern version of all this is gathered in what's called chord/scale theory or is it scale/chord theory. The idea is that when a player sees a chord symbol, they are trained to think and play from a limited set of mode choices.
I've taken a run at this a few times. Berklee has a decent book on this
http://www.amazon.com/Chord-Scale-Th.../dp/B000M7B65O

as above I do think this applies more to lead players than bassists
as a beginner bass player I'm figuring chord tones and various approach note techniques to the next chord should keep me busy for a year or two

[rydin4lifebass]

I definitely trust my instructor but you're right, I want to know why this is important now, and further, what is the true benefit of knowing the 7 patterns from the Grimoire? The box pattern (pattern 7) you show below seems to be the most popular and lays out things in a way I understand them. If I get a chord chart and I place my root...that's pretty much all I need (aside from rhythm of course)..correct?

I'm very confused with relative and parallel modes. If you use C mixolydian, we're not really in C anymore because we have a B flat, so we're in F major...so my question is, what is the point of saying C mix...why not just call it F major?...and on a chord chart or when learning a song...I just don't see how that benefits me?

Also, Malcolm...how can C dorian be two different things..both D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D AND C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb

[jmattbassplaya]

They aren't different.

Instead of starting on C, you look to D as the starting note (a minor). That's why the b3 works.

D... E... F
R... 2... b3

Whereas C Ionian (major) is:

C... D... E... F
R... 2... 3... 4

*Oops!* I was still talking in regards to relative. Yeah, pay attention to Malcom because he's actually answering the real question you were asking

[jmattbassplaya]

If this is confusing then you really, really should consider starting with chords. This stuff isn't easy to learn and it's incredibly easy to get frustrated with. Chords simplify this learning process tenfold and make learning modes later on a ton easier.

[rydin4lifebass]

so if I get what you're saying...the second mode is a minor and has the flattened iii, in the same way a minor chord has a flattened iii?