Bluegrass?

LC transplant · #1 07-26-2011, 07:03 PM

I posted this in technique and got no replies, so I'm trying here:
I am a lifelong hard rock player who is growing more and more acoustic. I recently hung out with some bluegrass players and have decided next time I see those guys I'm bringing my acoustic bass... What can I practice between now and then so I will fit in, theory and technique wise? Buying a double bass is absolutely outside my means at the moment (although I have played in high school orchestra and jazz band) so I am mainly looking for suggestions on what to play and who to listen to.
Thanks in advance for your valuable input!
Ian

**fuzzy beard** · #2 07-26-2011, 07:15 PM

Bring your amp! They will bury you with out it. As far as the bluegrass people i have played with there are 2 kinds! Old school stick to your root fifth and maybe a chromatic run or two! But remember there are no drums every one is counting on you for timming after they get done doing there solo's! You will be one big metronome! Then you also have your new school or new grass players. This group will be much more like what you are use to. Stick to the chord structures of the song but throw some flare in there! Also seems to be much more up tempo in new grass bass playing!

I am sure you have heard old school bluegrass but for a good example of new grass look up a band called trampled by turtles! And remember more than anything no TAPPING or SLAP, POPPING kind of stuff! This is punishable by death at a bluegrass jam!LOL

LC transplant · #3 07-27-2011, 07:01 AM

Thanks! I don't do any of that funky stuff anyway, at least not outside the solitary confines of my practice room! I will definitely check that band out.

warnergt · #4 07-27-2011, 07:50 AM

I, too, saw a bluegrass get-together recently and was pretty
inspired by their music. I'm no bluegrass expert but what I
saw was indeed dominated by a root-fifth with an occasional
chromatic run.

The guys I saw were pretty cool. They welcomed new
players to get up and play along but I was unfamiliar with
the tunes and didn't think I was ready. They would get into a
tune and go around giving most everybody got a solo.
However, I never saw the bass player take a solo.

The following week (which was last week), I decided to learn
"Old Joe Clark." It was easy. So, I decided to take it further
and figure out how to play a bass solo for the tune. I based
it on the guitar melody/solo but, more or less, threw out
some notes to get the speed down what a bass could
handle. It's pretty cool.

I'll be ready for one song with those guys next time I see
them. I just hope that they play in the same key that I just
learned for the tune. I don't think I could transpose the bass
solo in real time.

Roadstar · #5 07-27-2011, 08:11 AM

1,5 1,4, 1,5

MattP · #6 07-27-2011, 09:30 AM

Bill Monroe seems to be the acknowledged 'founder' of bluegrass, so that might be a good place to start learning old school bluegrass. My first introduction to bluegrass came before I really jumped into playing bass. It was a band called New Grass Revival. They were the Rush of bluegrass in my mind. The banjo player was Bela Fleck. I'm sure no one here has heard of him.

JTE · #7 07-27-2011, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattP

Bill Monroe seems to be the acknowledged 'founder' of bluegrass, so that might be a good place to start learning old school bluegrass. My first introduction to bluegrass came before I really jumped into playing bass. It was a band called New Grass Revival. They were the Rush of bluegrass in my mind. The banjo player was Bela Fleck. I'm sure no one here has heard of him.

Well, not just Mr. Fleck, but monsters like Pat Flynn on guitar, Sam Bush on mandolin, and the bassist who sings "real loud and real high", John Cowan. They did a killer version of Smokey Robinson's "Ain't That Peculiar"!!!

But newgrass isn't exactly the same as bluegrass. At leas when I was hangin' around bluegrass people. Sorta like blues players coming from the music of Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, etc. compared to the Hats 'n' Strats "blooze" players who think the blues world began with SRV...

Edited to add...
Not that I'd lump Newgrass Revival nor The Flecktones into the same category of sycophantic SRV worshipers. It's not SRV's fault that many of his fans are over-the-top. I was just trying to make an analogy between what some fans of the music consider "proper" bluegrass and what others do. But I pretty much hate genre terms for music. I subscribe to Duke Ellington's philosophy which is that "There are only two kinds of music; music that sounds good and whatever you want to call that other stuff."

John

Russell L · #8 07-27-2011, 10:53 AM

You can let your picking hand flop back on the strings on the off-beats. It helps keep time and give a good feel (like what the snare drum does). The local jam here is acoustic only, no amplification allowed. Also, I'll bet you'll run into more old school than new grass.

(Oh yes, I've heard of Bela Fleck and the new Grass Revival, since the 70s).

I gotta admit, though, the one time I sat in on the jam here on an upright, I got bored real quick. Tried it on acoustic guitar as well, but after about three or four songs I'd had enough of the same licks over and over. I still like the music, though.

Heh, heh, me and a buddy went back up to the front room (with our acoustic guitars) where there were some cats playing stuff a little different. We jammed with them for awhile, and then they looked at us to see if we had a song to do. Well, we weren't up on bluegrass tunes. I looked at my bud, winked, and said, "Autumn Leaves" (we know jazz). He looked puzzled, until I counted it off and started comping a real fast bluegrass kind of beat on Em. he hit the pick-up melody notes and I went to Am as fast and bluegrassy as any other bluegrass tune, roots on 1 and 3, strumming on 2 and 4. LOL, the other cats couldn't understand what those chords were I was playing, especially when I got to the F#mb5. On we went, do-dang-a, do-dang-a, do-dang-a... (kinda like what Ray Stevens did to Misty).

Laughed our butts off later.

LC transplant · #9 07-27-2011, 11:08 AM

Russell: could you be more specific about what to do with my right hand in between notes? I am trying to visualize what you're saying and drawing a blank. Are you referring to something that can be done on a bass guitar or on a standup only?

Also, for the general discussion: is playing an acoustic/electric instrument (with or without a DI) through the house sound considered amplification? My ABG is among the louder I've used but would be drowned out in a crowd, for "just jamming" I was planning on using a small practice amp turned low to get a little more projection. Would this be okay since the bass itself is an acoustic instrument?

Really appreciate everyone's input, this is uncharted territory for me (I was raised in the great northwest) so even the old time standards are relatively unknown, although I am familiar with the 1,5 1,4 1,5 from playing string bass in my high school's production of "Oklahoma" a decade or so ago...

JTE · #10 07-27-2011, 11:40 AM

Use of an amp, or the PA, depends on the people you're with.

"Do you know how many bluegrass players it takes to change a light bulb? Ten. One to change it, and nine more to stand around and bi#$@ because it's electric." That's not an uncommon attitude among some folks in the BG circles, while others are much more receptive to dealing with getting the sound out to the crowd. That's part of the reason why I'm suspicious of people who claim they can use a typical plywood ABG in the real world without amplification. Bluegrass guitar players are LOUD (a great D-28 is called a "cannon" by those folks for a good reason), and banjos also create a LOT of sound. Some folks only use one mic so the singers and instrumentalists "mix" their own sound by where they are and how hard they play. I've only played two ABGs that'd come close to doing the job in a strictly acoustic bluegrass context and they're both huge (the big Guild B050/B-30 and the Ernie Ball Earthwood).

While most musicians are cool folks, there is a certain element in the BG world that does indeed look on electricity as at best a necessary evil. Might be a good idea to quietly ask around the folks you know to see which way the wind blows.

John

arginator · #11 07-27-2011, 11:55 AM

Have you thought of making a washtub bass? No joke! There are a few threads here on them. I heard this band Po Girl live, and they use one. Sounded surprisingly great! They look easy and cheap to make. I'll be making one eventually just for fun.

As far as what to listen to, here are my suggestions, old and new:

Bill Monroe
Ralph Stanley
Dell McCoury
Doc Watson
Tony Rice
David Grisman
Old and In The Way

onosson · #12 07-27-2011, 12:04 PM

One of the real keys to bass in this context is timing - not just timekeeping, but also duration of notes, and the spaces between them. You can play 1-5 all night long, but if you aren't playing it "right" it just won't work the same.

LC transplant · #13 07-27-2011, 12:37 PM

I have played around with washtub bass in the past, more for "shucks" and giggles than anything else. It's really hard to get a consistent tone or precise notes out of them, and it's crucial that you use an old school tub with heavy metal (no Chinese alloys). I suppose with a lot of practice one could stay in a key with it, but I never got there trying to do 12 bar stuff.

onosson · #14 07-27-2011, 12:44 PM

Tom "Twisty" Fodey of (now-defunct) locals the D.Rangers plays his own custom-made "muckbucket" bass, which you can see in their myspace profile pic, and where you can also hear some of their tunes:

D.Rangers | Free Music, Tour Dates, Photos, Videos

Tampabass · #15 07-27-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onosson

One of the real keys to bass in this context is timing - not just timekeeping, but also duration of notes, and the spaces between them. You can play 1-5 all night long, but if you aren't playing it "right" it just won't work the same.

Exactly right.

I'm no expert, but I've done my share of jamming with good bluegrass players, and the best advice I had was to play a little bit behind the beat, as opposed to pushing the band by being ahead of the beat or squarely on top of the beat.

Hard concept to explain, but when I thought about it and tried to play accordingly, my playing fit better. It's sort of relaxed, laidback. But that doesn't mean slow, as there are plenty of fast bluegrass tunes where -- if you listen closely -- you'll hear that the bassist's notes are sitting just behind the beat. My interpretation, anyway.

edit: and yes on the tone "duration" factor, too - you don't want the note to sustain and swell to the degree that you often do, in jazz, but neither do you want the tone to be completely clipped and staccato.

Russell L · #16 07-27-2011, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LC transplant

Russell: could you be more specific about what to do with my right hand in between notes? I am trying to visualize what you're saying and drawing a blank. Are you referring to something that can be done on a bass guitar or on a standup only?

Also, for the general discussion: is playing an acoustic/electric instrument (with or without a DI) through the house sound considered amplification? My ABG is among the louder I've used but would be drowned out in a crowd, for "just jamming" I was planning on using a small practice amp turned low to get a little more projection. Would this be okay since the bass itself is an acoustic instrument?

Really appreciate everyone's input, this is uncharted territory for me (I was raised in the great northwest) so even the old time standards are relatively unknown, although I am familiar with the 1,5 1,4 1,5 from playing string bass in my high school's production of "Oklahoma" a decade or so ago...

It's about how long the notes are, and what I'm talking about is to cut them off right on the off-beat. It gives a rhythm all its own. I guess you could call it the original slap bass. Some cats actually slap the bass so that the off beat is sounded by the slap. It's like---pluck the note and then let your hand come up off the strings and slap back down on them, right on the "ands" between the notes. You can vary the hardness of the slap, but at least cut the note off on the off-beat. You can do the same thing on electric, but make sure your lows aren't boosted or else your speaker might run out of excursion with the spike that is created by the slap.

mambo4 · #17 07-27-2011, 01:20 PM

the double bass area has an entire blugrass forum...

maybe that will have helpful tips too.

LC transplant · #18 07-27-2011, 02:59 PM

Thanks again guys! I found the bluegrass section after I posted my question (using the search function of all things) but am glad I posted because there have been some interesting things here, especially regarding bands to listen to.

**fuzzy beard** · #19 07-27-2011, 03:53 PM

Yes you will meet people who will not be happy unless you have a upright! I say the hell with them i dont care if you are playing a pink and purple striped 1 string on a dog bowl instrument! If it sound good, Fits, And you play it well you are welcome at any where i have been! And any way unless it is a small jam, or a week event like clifftop they are all using amplifacation! They mic theres to the board you send yours di,or mic the cab!

Also it will not be the best tone but i used a pignose hog 30 two times at out door BG jams and that went well. There are always people looking for a bass player at a jam. There will be 10 guitars, 15 banjos, 10 mandolins, 5 fiddles, and 1 bass player.LOL

Russell L · #20 07-28-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzzy beard

Yes you will meet people who will not be happy unless you have a upright! I say the hell with them i dont care if you are playing a pink and purple striped 1 string on a dog bowl instrument! If it sound good, Fits, And you play it well you are welcome at any where i have been! And any way unless it is a small jam, or a week event like clifftop they are all using amplifacation! They mic theres to the board you send yours di,or mic the cab!

Also it will not be the best tone but i used a pignose hog 30 two times at out door BG jams and that went well. There are always people looking for a bass player at a jam. There will be 10 guitars, 15 banjos, 10 mandolins, 5 fiddles, and 1 bass player.LOL

Yeah, here there are few bass players at the jam. It's a weekly thing every Friday night at Bill's Pickin' Parlor in West Columbia, SC. Once in awhile some mainliner might just show there (Bill Wells knows a lot of folks). Great place, but absolutely no amplification is allowed. And yeah, I was the only bass player the night I did it.