"Blues Scale" versus Blues with major 3rd

[warnergt]

I keep seeing references to the Blues Scale (with a minor 3rd) as one of
the most commonly used scales. However, from my experience, it seems
that most blues use a major 3rd. Usually, when I see a minor 3rd, it's a
passing tone to the major 3rd.

What's going on here?

[JTE]

Yeah, the bass uses the major third, but the guitarist, harp player, singer, and pianist are all using that minor 3. It's the juxtaposition of the major 3rd against the minor third that's the effect the blues scale gets.

While the bass might be playing the major third to define the chord ('though the 1, 5, and b7 are more important), the soloist is going to be inflecting that minor 3.

John

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by JTE

Yeah, the bass uses the major third, but the guitarist, harp player, singer, and pianist are all using that minor 3. It's the juxtaposition of the major 3rd against the minor third that's the effect the blues scale gets.

While the bass might be playing the major third to define the chord ('though the 1, 5, and b7 are more important), the soloist is going to be inflecting that minor 3.

John

Unless you're playing the blues number in a minor key (a lot of slow blues), then you would use the minor.

[MalcolmAmos]

My take on this is the ole rule - bass plays the chord tone. Chord is G7-C7-D7 so that's what we play R-3-5-b7. A Blues solo over that would/could use the minor pentatonic R-b3-4-5-b7 and add the #4 or b5 blue note.

Blues will historically use major chords and as has been said minor scale solo.

[John Wentzien]

The 3rd in blues isn't really major OR minor...

It's a "blue-note" wich can be bent between a major or minor 3rd..with all points in-between..depending on the resolution...

[JTE]

The reason it's a b3 is because the major 3 is sharp and the minor 3 is flat of the note African folk music uses. Using the minor 3 in the melody against the major 3 in the under-lying harmony gives the effect of the the note in between.

It's not bent on a fixed pitch instrument like piano or organ, BTW.

John

[ricca]

Right,
minor 3rd in melody and major 3rd in harmony
it's the "secret" of the blues

[slybass3000]

What you referring to is the MAJOR BLUES SCALE !

A simple way to play it is play a Major pentatonic and add the minor third to it : C-D-D#-E-G-A. It is actually the same as playing an Aminor Blues scale starting on C.

Hope this helps. THIS IS THE BEST KEPT SECRET!!!! LOL

[JTE]

Hmm,, never in 30+ years of playing and studying have I ever heard of a "major blues scale". And I stand by my experience that soloist are using what slybass3000 calls the minor blues scale (1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7 1) as the meat and potatoes of soloing over major chords. That scale is the minor pentatonic with a b5 added in. And they'll alternate between the minor pentatonic and the major pentatonic pretty frequently- it's a stock piece of Clapton's vocabulary and he's one of the most fluid ones with moving between them.

Ultimately it comes down to using the minor pentatonic as the framework, but every note is fair game for a passing sound.

BTW, the b3 of C is Eb, not D#. In the key of C, D is the fourth, so D# is the sharp 4. Even though they're the same physical note, the incorrect description can confuse people starting out so I think it's important to be precise.

John

[warnergt]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

My take on this is the ole rule - bass plays the chord tone. Chord is G7-C7-D7 so that's what we play R-3-5-b7. A Blues solo over that would/could use the minor pentatonic R-b3-4-5-b7 and add the #4 or b5 blue note.

You are referring to a guitar solo over the bass chord tones.
What is appropriate if the bass takes a solo?

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by warnergt

You are referring to a guitar solo over the bass chord tones.
What is appropriate if the bass takes a solo?

Move the gig down the street to the jazz club?

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by warnergt

You are referring to a guitar solo over the bass chord tones.
What is appropriate if the bass takes a solo?

Either one has worked for me.

If the solo is a variation of the walk or jump line I'm already playing- major 3rd.

If the solo is more "in depth" and melodic - minor 3rd.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by JTE

Hmm,, never in 30+ years of playing and studying have I ever heard of a "major blues scale". And I stand by my experience that soloist are using what slybass3000 calls the minor blues scale (1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7 1) as the meat and potatoes of soloing over major chords. That scale is the minor pentatonic with a b5 added in. And they'll alternate between the minor pentatonic and the major pentatonic pretty frequently- it's a stock piece of Clapton's vocabulary and he's one of the most fluid ones with moving between them.

Ultimately it comes down to using the minor pentatonic as the framework, but every note is fair game for a passing sound.

BTW, the b3 of C is Eb, not D#. In the key of C, D is the fourth, so D# is the sharp 4. Even though they're the same physical note, the incorrect description can confuse people starting out so I think it's important to be precise.

John

Like I said it is a best kept secret sort of speak!
Never heard of the #9 ???? The actual written note is D# !!!! Very often we will use the Eb but D# is actually the right note. So I stand to my saying.

[guroove]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

The 3rd in blues isn't really major OR minor...

It's a "blue-note" wich can be bent between a major or minor 3rd..with all points in-between..depending on the resolution...

This. Which is one of the nice things about fretless and upright bass when playing the blues.

[Mushroo]

You're both right; it is a b3rd melodically and #9th harmonically (dom7#9 aka the "Hendrix chord").

[JTE]

Not disputing the sound, I'm just very concerned about misleading people without a good background in theory who might get confused by the inaccurate terminology.

You say "play a Major pentatonic and add the minor third to it" (emphasis added). The minor 3 is Eb, not D#. That's all. If you're going to post on a section devoted to helping people understand theory, I just think it's important to not cause this kind of confusion.

Yes, if you extend it out to the ninth (which means it's a chord with the seventh at least implied), then D# is the correct terminology. But when you say "minor third", then it just seems to be more helpful to beginngers list the actual minor third.

Bottom line to the original post, is that it's the tension between the major and the minor third that's a large part of the "sound" of blues-based music. The 7#9 chord (a/k/a "the Hendrix chord", even though Jimi got it from tons of R'n'B recordings) is cool precisely because it contains both notes in it. 1, 3, 5, b7 #9 in C is C E G Bb D#. Besides instant "Purple Haze", it's slamming that tension right in your face. I love it!

John

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by JTE

Not disputing the sound, I'm just very concerned about misleading people without a good background in theory who might get confused by the inaccurate terminology.

You say "play a Major pentatonic and add the minor third to it" (emphasis added). The minor 3 is Eb, not D#. That's all. If you're going to post on a section devoted to helping people understand theory, I just think it's important to not cause this kind of confusion.

Yes, if you extend it out to the ninth (which means it's a chord with the seventh at least implied), then D# is the correct terminology. But when you say "minor third", then it just seems to be more helpful to beginngers list the actual minor third.

Bottom line to the original post, is that it's the tension between the major and the minor third that's a large part of the "sound" of blues-based music. The 7#9 chord (a/k/a "the Hendrix chord", even though Jimi got it from tons of R'n'B recordings) is cool precisely because it contains both notes in it. 1, 3, 5, b7 #9 in C is C E G Bb D#. Besides instant "Purple Haze", it's slamming that tension right in your face. I love it!

John

Hey dude !!! What's wrong with you ?

You are upset because I mentioned something you don't know about and get fussy about an enharmonic spelling of a note that is actually right for that ?

I named a D# instead of Eb because in the case I was describing the D# is a passing note between D and E not E and D. If you know about how to write music, you would know that this is the right way of writing intervals. A minor third interval could be an augmented second too if you want to get fussy about that. And D# is the #9 of a C7(#9).

So you don't know about the major blues scale ? Then stop talking and start listening. You might learn something.

Do you know a guy called Jaco ? That scale is all over his playing. The first half of the second lick of Teen Town as an example is the Major Blues scale note for note for your information.

And please for someone who wants to lecture other people about theory you should read your post #9 again because you don't make an ounce of sense, dude !!!!