Box Pattern Help

[rydin4lifebass]

I read a post with this info in, but now I can't seem to find it. The first two boxes are the ones I copied from the other thread and the ones below are the ones I wrote out(I-IV-V chord in G Major, VII chord, and Pentatoic).....Am I understanding this correctly?

Major scale box with note names shown
G-|----|--A-|----|--B-|--C-|----|----|
D-|----|--E-|----|-F#-|--G-|----|----|
A-|----|--B-|--C-|----|--D-|----|----|
E-|----|----|--G-|----|--A-|----|----|

Major scale box with interval numbers shown
G-|----|--2-|----|--3-|--4-|----|----|
D-|----|--6-|----|--7-|--8-|----|----|
A-|----|--3-|--4-|----|--5-|----|----|
E-|----|----|-R--|----|--2-|----|----|


I-IV-V Pattern in G Major
I (G-B-D)
G-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
A-|----|-3B-|----|----|-5D-|----|----|
E-|----|----|-1G-|----|----|----|----|

IV (C-E-G)
G-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D-|----|-3E-|----|----|-5G-|----|----|
A-|----|----|-1C-|----|----|----|----|
E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|

V (D-F#-A)
G-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D-|----|----|----|-3F#|----|----|-5A-|
A-|----|----|----|----|-1D-|----|----|
E-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|


VII Chord
G-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D-|----|----|----|--7-|----|----|----|
A-|----|--3-|----|----|--5-|----|----|
E-|----|----|-R--|----|----|----|----|

Pentatonic Scale
G-|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D-|----|--6-|----|----|----|----|----|
A-|----|--3-|----|----|--5-|----|----|
E-|----|----|-R--|----|--2-|----|----|

[MalcolmAmos]

Here is the original site; http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...67#post9372867
And yes your graphs are correct except for the vii chord here you have the B diminished chord (Bm7b5) so it is R-b3-b5-b7 move your 3, 5 and 7 -- flat your 3, 5 and 7. You also need to get the root on a B note. You figure it out - that fish thing.

Good job!

Hint -- Your b3 can be on the 4th or 3rd string. I like the 3rd string, up to you.

[rydin4lifebass]

How do I have a b diminished chord if my root note is on G and the 3 and 5 are still in the same positions? I've just added the 7th note, so doesn't that just make it a G chord with 1-3-5-7?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

How do I have a b diminished chord if my root note is on G and the 3 and 5 are still in the same positions? I've just added the 7th note, so doesn't that just make it a G chord with 1-3-5-7?

Well the vii chord in the key of G is the F#m7b5. You are correct your graph does not reflect that.

What you have is the Gmaj7 chord. R-3-5-7
I think you are still on line. Ask questions......

OK I see what you are saying.

We have three seventh chords.
They are GMaj7 1-3-5-7
Am7 or Bm7 or Em7 1-b3-5-b7
Then D7 as the dominant seventh again with a 1-3-5-b7 but as this is a major chord the 3 is natural not flatted.
Notice I goofed with the B diminished it should be the F#m7b5.

Dinner is served, I'll check back.

[rydin4lifebass]

I gotcha..just getting my terms mixed up..so basically I have a Gmajor with the 7th added....

Also..is the pentatonic chart correct?

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes.

[rydin4lifebass]

So for G Major..the chords would be as follows:

I G
ii A
iii B
IV C
V D
vi E
viidim F#

So my I, IV, V are major chords..my ii, ii, vi are minor and my vii is diminished?

What do you mean we have three 7th chords, couldn't you have a 7th for any of these?

[MalcolmAmos]

Dinner is on the table the family is waiting I'll come back and answer that in about 30 minutes.

[rydin4lifebass]

no problem..I appreciate it..I have my bass lessons in a few anyway..

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

So for G Major..the chords would be as follows:

I G
ii A
iii B
IV C
V D
vi E
viidim F#

So my I, IV, V are major chords..my ii, iii, vi are minor and my vii is diminished?

What do you mean we have three 7th chords, couldn't you have a 7th for any of these?

Almost. The chords in the key of G are:
I G
ii Am
iii Bm
IV C
V D
vi Em
viidim F#dim
Now I'm going to put the sevenths into the key.
I Gmaj7
ii Am7
iii Bm7
IV Cmaj7
V D7
vi Em7
viidim F#m7b5

Now to your question

So my I, IV, V are major chords..my ii, iii, vi are minor and my vii is diminished?

Yes that is correct. In your post you did not list the minor chords as minor, i.e. A should have been Am, etc. I think this was just a typo.

What do you mean we have three 7th chords, couldn't you have a 7th for any of these

Yes any of the chords can be a seventh, however, they are not all the same kind of sevenths. We have major sevenths (Cmaj7), minor sevenths (Am7) and dominant sevenths (D7). Major sevenths chords and minor sevenths chords add color and flavor the dominant seventh adds tension. The G and C would be maj7 (R-3-5-7), the Am, Bm and Em would be Am7, Bm7 and Em7 or minor sevenths (R-b3-5-b7) and the D7 is a dominant seventh (R-3-5-b7). Each seventh has a specific job, i.e. color, flavor or adding tension.

Check out the next post.

[MalcolmAmos]

The chord spelling in the following can point to a specific box pattern.

Purpose of this paper is to call attention to the skip-a-note method of harmonizing a scale. Take the scale then by skipping a note you build the chords for that scale. Skip a note is an easy way to identify the notes within the chords of that scale. From that you can then using the chord’s spelling to name the chord, i.e. 3 = major, b3 = minor, 7 = maj7, b7 = dominant seventh or minor seventh, m7b5 = ½ diminished, b5 bb7 = Diminished, etc. From there you can identify that specific chord’s function within the key, i.e. I-IV-V, etc. This chart can be used as a study of how chords are formed.

A Major 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Note	Chord		Spelling		Chord Name		Function
A	A-C#-E-G#	R-3-5-7		Amaj7			I	Tonic									
B	B-D-F#-A	R-b3-5-b7	Bm7			ii
C#	C#-E-G#-B	R-b3-5-b7	C#m7			iii
D	D-F#-A-C#	R-3-5-7		Dmaj7			IV     Subdominant
E	E-G#-B-D	R-3-5-b7	E7			V      Dominant
F#	F#-A-C#-E	R-b3-5-b7	F#m7			iv
G#	G#-B-D-F#	R-b3-b5-b7	G#m7b5			vii ½ dim

A Natural Minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Note	Chord 		Spelling		Chord Name		Function
A	A-C-E-G		1-b3-5-b7	Amin 7			I	   (tonic)	
B	B-D-F-A		1-b3-b5-b7	Bmin7b5			ii ½ dim
C	C-E-G-B		1-3-5-7		Cmaj 7			bIII	
D	D-F-A-C		1-b3-5-b7	Dmin 7			iv   (subdominant)
E	E-G-B-D		1-b3-5-b7	Emin 7			v	(dominant)
F	F-A-C-E		1-3-5-7		Fmaj 7			bVI	
G	G-B-D-F		1-3-5-b7	G7			bVII

A harmonic minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
Note 	Chord 		Spelling		Chord Name	Function
A	A-C-E-G#	1-b3-5-7		A min(maj7) 	i min(maj7)         (tonic)
B	B-D-F-A		1-b3-b5-b7	Bmin7b5		ii min7b5
C	C-E-G#-B	1-3-#5-7		Cmaj7(#5)	bIII maj 7(#5)
D	D-F-A-C		1-b3-5-b7	Dmin 7		iv min7       (subdominant)
E	E-G#-B-D	1-3-5-b7		E7		V7	        (dominant)
F	F-A-C-E		1-3-5-7		Fmaj 7		bVI maj7
G#	G#-B-D-F	1-b3-b5-bb7	G#dim7		vii dim7 (full dim)

A melodic minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Note 	Chord 		Spelling		Chord Name	Function
A	A-C-E-G#	1-b3-5-7		Am(Maj7) 	i min Maj7          (tonic)
B	B-D-F#-A	1-b3-5-b7	B min7		ii min7
C	C--EG#-B	1-3-#5-7		Cmaj7#5		III maj 7 aug
D	D-F#-A-C	1-3-5-b7		D 7		IV dom7       (subdominant)
E	E-G#-B-D	1-3-5-b7		E7		V dom7		(dominant)
F#	F#-A-C-E	1-b3-b5-b7	F#m7b5		vi m7b5
G#	G#-B-D-F#	1-b3-b5-b7	G#m7b5		vii m7b5 or vii ½ dim

It is my understanding that most do not harmonize the melodic minor scale, instead, relaying upon the chords found in the Natural or Harmonic minor key. Melodic minor is as its name implies – used for its melodic notes. Of course you could harmonize any scale using the skip-a-note method if you choose.

[rydin4lifebass]

that make sense..so in G, the following would be:

Am: A-bC-bE
Bm: B-bD-F (bF#)
Em: E-bG-bB
F#dim: F#-bA-bC

is that right?

[mambo4]

There are NO flat notes in the key of G major. But some of the intervals within the chords, relative to that chord's root are minor intervals - that is flattened vs what they would be if the chord were major/maj 7.

The A minor chord for example is spelled ACE. The interval A-C is a minor third. No need to alter the C to C flat. To make A major, you have to raise the C : A C# E.

Be careful not to confuse a flattened interval (1357) with actually flatting the "name" (abcd) of the note...

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

that make sense..so in G, the following would be:

Am: A-bC-bE
Bm: B-bD-F (bF#)
Em: E-bG-bB
F#dim: F#-bA-bC

is that right?

You seem to mixed up now intervals with the name of the notes like for a minor third (b3) doesn't mean that the note will be named with a flat. So far you seem to do good with your understanding up to that post.

To go further, I will add this little rule so you can understand better how notes are named:

A natural note if sharp (raised by a semitone) will become a sharp note like C will become C#.

A sharp note if sharp again will become double-sharp like C# will become Cx or D as an enharmonic (same pitch but written differently) .

A natural note if flatten will be a flat note like B will become Bb.

A flat note if flatten again will become double-flat like Bb will become Bbb or A as an enharmonic.

I hope you understand a bit better the nomenclature of notes versus the intervals and tonalities.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by mambo4

There are NO flat notes in the key of G major. But some of the intervals within the chords, relative to that chord's root are minor intervals - that is flattened vs what they would be if the chord were major/maj 7.

The A minor chord for example is spelled ACE. The interval A-C is a minor third. No need to alter the C to C flat. To make A major, you have to raise the C : A C# E.

Be careful not to confuse a flattened interval (1357) with actually flatting the "name" (abcd) of the note...

+1

Good explanation also ;-)

[rydin4lifebass]

I guess if I write it out it makes more sense. So in Am, its not a C flat, but flat the C note, but its already a minor interval so we don't need to flatten it any further?
So in a minor chord (ii, ii, vi)...do we need to flatten any of the "3" notes? or are they already in the positiion we need?

Also..I though the I, IV, V chords in a major scale were all major chords, but the V is a dominant chord? How is that different from a major chord?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

I guess if I write it out it makes more sense. So in Am, its not a C flat, but flat the C note, but its already a minor interval so we don't need to flatten it any further?
So in a minor chord (ii, ii, vi)...do we need to flatten any of the "3" notes? or are they already in the position we need?

Correct.

Also..I though the I, IV, V chords in a major scale were all major chords, but the V is a dominant chord? How is that different from a major chord?

Yes the I IV V are major chords and the V is a major dominant chord - give-a-way is the V has a natural 3rd not a b3. How do I know the V is a dominant chord. Well the old guys figured this out a long time ago. The V and viidim are the dominant chords in a key. The V is major and the viidim is diminished and diminished are also minor as well. The ii and the IV are sub dominant the ii is minor and the IV is major. The tonic chord or I can be i -- can be major or minor.
This may help. http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm
And then here http://www.musictheory.net/ click on Lessons then Common Chord Progressions.

You are getting there. Keep going.

[rydin4lifebass]

ok..so in the key of G..my chords are as follows:

I: G-B-D
ii: A-C-E
iii: B-D-F#
IV: C-E-G
V: D-F#-A
iv: E-G-B
vii: F#-A-C

If I understand this correctly, we don't actually flatten any of these notes to make the minor or diminished chords, they are already the flattened versions when compared with another major scale. Example..the ii chord is A-C-E. The C is the flattened version of hte C# when looking at the A major scale. In the sme manner, in F# diminished chord, the A and C are the flattened versions of A# and C# when looking at the F# major scale. For the I, IV, V chords, the notes are the same when compared to the major scales, the ii, iii, vi chords have flattened 3rds (or minor thirds) when comapred, and the vii diminished has flattened 3rd and 5th?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

ok..so in the key of G..my chords are as follows:

I: G-B-D
ii: A-C-E
iii: B-D-F#
IV: C-E-G
V: D-F#-A
iv: E-G-B
vii: F#-A-C

If I understand this correctly, we don't actually flatten any of these notes to make the minor or diminished chords, they are already the flattened versions when compared with another major scale. Example..the ii chord is A-C-E. The C is the flattened version of hte C# when looking at the A major scale. In the sme manner, in F# diminished chord, the A and C are the flattened versions of A# and C# when looking at the F# major scale. For the I, IV, V chords, the notes are the same when compared to the major scales, the ii, iii, vi chords have flattened 3rds (or minor thirds) when comapred, and the vii diminished has flattened 3rd and 5th?

Yep! You got it. Check this out by stacking 3rds.

Take the G scale -- G, A, B, C, D, E, F# If we stack 3rds - chose every other note we build the chords of that scale.

G-B-D-F# = Gmaj7 because we have a natural 3 and a natural F#
A-C-E-G = Am7 because we have a b3 and a b7.......... finish out the G scale by stacking 3rds. This will let you build the chords for any scale.

Take the E major scale as it has a bunch of sharps and build the chords by stacking 3rds. Check yourself out with this http://www.looknohands.com/chordhous.../index_rb.html

Have fun.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

ok..so in the key of G..my chords are as follows:

I: G-B-D
ii: A-C-E
iii: B-D-F#
IV: C-E-G
V: D-F#-A
iv: E-G-B
vii: F#-A-C

If I understand this correctly, we don't actually flatten any of these notes to make the minor or diminished chords, they are already the flattened versions when compared with another major scale. Example..the ii chord is A-C-E. The C is the flattened version of hte C# when looking at the A major scale. In the sme manner, in F# diminished chord, the A and C are the flattened versions of A# and C# when looking at the F# major scale. For the I, IV, V chords, the notes are the same when compared to the major scales, the ii, iii, vi chords have flattened 3rds (or minor thirds) when comapred, and the vii diminished has flattened 3rd and 5th?

Yes but you don't have to compare it to the major scale, more to the major chord instead,just to not complicate things.

One thing to remember is that from a major scale you can build :
2 major 7 chords ( I and IV)
3 minor 7 chords ( II, III and VI)
1 dominant 7 (V)
1 minor 7 (b5) or half-diminished (VII)