BPM What Should I be Shooting For

beaglegod · #1 01-30-2009, 10:15 PM

Hey again guys I just wanted to ask you all what you consider to be a good goal for exercises/scales /arpeggios etc on the metronome. I mean I know you can always try and get faster but at some point Ill have to drop some exercises as I take on new ones, and I just dont want to do so prematurely or waste time for that matter drilling exercises that I should move on from.

bongomania · #2 01-30-2009, 10:35 PM

The very best metronome exercise IMO is to set it very, very slow, and play your written part at the slowest tempo manageable, in lock with the metronome. It will show up any tendencies to jump ahead or fall behind in time, and it will reinforce consistency in the strength and timbre of your notes.

Jake of Bass · #3 01-30-2009, 10:42 PM

+1 to that ^^^

I tell all my guitar/bass students that increasing tempo is the LAST thing you do. Playing accurately with even time is of utmost importance. Once you can play what you're working on at a slow tempo and play it well, almost second nature, speed it up in increments of 5-10bpm, but no more. If you're making mistakes, slow down as playing anything faster only makes it more difficult if you haven't learned it properly.

beaglegod · #4 01-30-2009, 10:50 PM

Yes I undrstand that and thts pretty much what Im doing with each and every exercise, my question however is what do you consider to be a good goal for exercises/scales /arpeggios etc on the metronome in terms of BPM. Since you can always try and get faster but at some point Ill have to drop some exercises as I take on new ones, and I just dont want to do so prematurely or waste time for that matter drilling exercises that I should move on from. So as an example lets say I start an exercise at 60 BPM and gradually work my way up to 120 ( 1/4 notes ) at some point I have to drop this exercise for a new one would that be a good target or goal?

Jake of Bass · #5 01-30-2009, 10:55 PM

It really depends what you're practicing, and what your goals are.
I wouldn't suggest dropping exercises completely, but you're likely to play them less frequently as your focus shifts.

Do you get private lessons? I think they will help you greatly in a few departments you've started threads on. Just because you'll get a lot more out of face-to-face instruction than through text alone.

beaglegod · #6 01-31-2009, 12:05 AM

Because of time/work schedule the only lessons Im able to take at present are corospondence lessons. Thus far Im seeing progress only about 2 months in. I have quite a bit of printed exercises for instance for coordinating left/right hand I have about 15-20 pages worth, so I know time would never permit me to do all that. I guess Ill just have to go by feel as tro whether or not its time to drop some in exchange for others that are more advanced.

dmusic148 · #7 01-31-2009, 12:38 AM

I understand your question. You want to know, "how fast is fast enough" for a particular exercise.
It's not as important as you think it is. Speed comes with mastering music itself, not exercises.
Try this: Go as fast as feels completely comfortable. Master a particular tempo. When you feel you are making mistakes because the tempo is too fast, back off and move to another, different exercise.
The worst thing you can do is force it; this leads to bad habits, possible injury.
Simply playing good music, in a high-quality way, will pay much greater dividends than 'chops' type exercises ever will.

onlyclave · #8 01-31-2009, 01:16 AM

41 BPM. Seriously.

beaglegod · #9 01-31-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

41 BPM. Seriously.

Are you serious? At that tempo many of the exercises Im now doing would be extremely easy, Id be able to dig into a lot more of them.

Jake of Bass · #10 01-31-2009, 01:24 AM

Are you sure they will be easy? Can you play every note perfectly in time?

BiigM · #11 01-31-2009, 03:52 AM

Ok i'll bite. All of what these guys are saying is right. However you obviously want some kind of tempo goal.

Janek Gwizdala says he has worked Hanon exercises up to tempo 400 (doing eights). And that has done a lot for his technique. That is VEEEERRRYYY fast however.

I would say 180-200 (eights) would be a good first goal with scalar exercises.
But be sure that you can do it with perfect technique. So SLOOOOW first.

And please be sure to do some music to. Exercises alone won't make you a great musician :-)

Jake of Bass · #12 01-31-2009, 04:06 AM

Wouldn't 8ths @ 400bpm just make you sound like a rolling thunder? Clearly it's phenomenal, but where's the note definition?

As Frank Gambale himself said about his playing of 64th notes "Don't do it too much or you'll sound like a food processor"

cnltb · #13 01-31-2009, 04:27 AM

+1 on playing slow but accurately.
Most of the super fast players that I have heard seem to play mostly lick based stuff.
To me that gets very boring very fast, and I would always aim to play melodic things , and to come up with interesting ideas, before thinking about breaking the land speed records.
That is just as challenging ( perhaps more so) and a lot more gratifying.IMO

Hanon ( the piano exercises, no?) is good tho for your basic, logically built exercises.-Just don't use them in a solo. too many do it already

slow but thorough is a good path I recon. You'll get fast with time.

BiigM · #14 01-31-2009, 06:39 AM

I think the 400 doing eights thing is to have headroom. So 300 will feel like a breeze. 300 is still veeery fast IMO.

Go check out Janek Gwizdala. He is all about playing melodic. The speed is only so you can play the stuff you hear in your head. I totally agree that speed for speeds sake is just plain stupid, and boring to boot.

I only mentioned the tempo since it seemed that the OP was looking for some benchmarks to go for.

Jake of Bass · #15 01-31-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiigM

I think the 400 doing eights thing is to have headroom. So 300 will feel like a breeze. 300 is still veeery fast IMO.

For sure, I get it now. I thought you meant he was playing this frequently as part of his style.

Quote:

Go check out Janek Gwizdala. He is all about playing melodic. The speed is only so you can play the stuff you hear in your head. I totally agree that speed for speeds sake is just plain stupid, and boring to boot.

Agreed. I'll check him out when I have more time.

Quote:

I only mentioned the tempo since it seemed that the OP was looking for some benchmarks to go for.

LOL

"Ok, you've got that C major scale down at 40bpm playing quarter notes? Just keep playing it whilst gradually increasing the tempo till you've worked it up to 400bpm eighth notes. Once you've got that we'll start on the C minor scale. See you in 5 years."

BiigM · #16 01-31-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

LOL

"Ok, you've got that C major scale down at 40bpm playing quarter notes? Just keep playing it whilst gradually increasing the tempo till you've worked it up to 400bpm eighth notes. Once you've got that we'll start on the C minor scale. See you in 5 years."

Hehe, good one:-) If you check my first post I suggested 180 - 200 as a first goal.

Depending of the experience of the OP that should be doable. I have a couple of students with 3-4 years of experience that does this.

onlyclave · #17 01-31-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaglegod

Are you serious? At that tempo many of the exercises Im now doing would be extremely easy, Id be able to dig into a lot more of them.

I'm pretty sure the "easy" exercises won't be that easy at that tempo. Trust me. The goal of the exercise isn't to just play from start to end and try to hit all of the right notes in between. Take a 2 octave major scale in quarter notes played at 41 bpm for example. These are all of the things to think about while playing it:

1) the right notes
2) clean articulation
3) connecting the notes
4) time
5) dynamics
6) expression
7) time
8) consistency

And those are just 8 things I pulled off the top of my head. And yes I can count time twice. When you master quarter notes at 41, then play half note triplets. You will find that by very diligent and careful practice at very slow tempos your speed will come much easier and you will sound a LOT better than someone who just tries to get an exercise up to 220bpm within a week. Fast and crappy sounding is never good, even if it is fast, knowhutimsayin?

HaVIC5 · #18 01-31-2009, 11:38 AM

One of the things I do with my students to get together technical precisions is playing quarter notes at 60 bpm on the open strings, making sure that the notes are as even and legato as possible. If you've never done this sort of thing before and think its easy to keep up, you're wrong. After 60 bpm, instead of going up, we go down. 50 bpm. 40 bpm. Not easy. Doing anything at this speed forces you to internalize the rhythm to a degree that playing fast never will.

beaglegod · #19 01-31-2009, 02:15 PM

No doubt, I see the benefits of going slow, internal martial arts use the same principle, tai chi as an example is practiced very slowly but is quite explosive in combat applications.

My main concern was having a general idea as to what was a good point to move on from an exercise in order to make room for another. Or perhaps I should do the same few exercises for a LOT longer than I thought. When I saw the ammount of exercises my online teacher had me print out, I figured I would evenetually have to move on from some to make room for others but maybe these are supposed to last me years wrather than months.

onlyclave · #20 01-31-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaglegod

No doubt, I see the benefits of going slow, internal martial arts use the same principle, tai chi as an example is practiced very slowly but is quite explosive in combat applications.

My main concern was having a general idea as to what was a good point to move on from an exercise in order to make room for another. Or perhaps I should do the same few exercises for a LOT longer than I thought. When I saw the ammount of exercises my online teacher had me print out, I figured I would evenetually have to move on from some to make room for others but maybe these are supposed to last me years wrather than months.

If your teacher isn't explaining what to do in each exercise then you should ask for more guidance. Just throwing an exercise at someone and telling them to practice it isn't really teaching because as a student you don't know what you don't know. What a good teacher does is teaches you how to practice so that at some point you can go off on your own studies, but without the skills to solve musical problems you really won't progress.

If you really want to be humbled, record yourself playing that exercise at 41 bpm. That's where to start.