Is it C##?

[Matthew_84]

Hey guys,

Quick question... I was trying to write out a simple A#7 chord on a score sheet and ran into a dilemma when I got to the major third. Would I draw it out as a C with two sharps in front of it? If I were to write out would it be as follows?

A# - C## - E# - G#

Sorry, in my very limited experience, I've never seen two sharps attached to one note before and I don't know how I should go about labeling this major third.

Thank you in advance,

Matt

And yes, I am prepared to feel like an idiot.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hey guys,

Quick question... I was trying to write out a simple A#7 chord on a score sheet and ran into a dilemma when I got to the major third. Would I draw it out as a C with two sharps in front of it? If I were to write out would it be as follows?

A# - C## - E# - G#

Sorry, in my very limited experience, I've never seen two sharps attached to one note before and I don't know how I should go about labeling this major third.

Thank you in advance,

Matt

And yes, I am prepared to feel like an idiot.

If the chord is really an A#7, then yes, the third would be a C double sharp, but you would use a double sharp symbol for that, not two sharps.

I do wonder, however, why you are using an A#7 chord rather than a Bb7. What key are you in?

Edit: here is an example:

[mhead]

If you ask you are not an idiot, try Bb7. That why enharmonics are there for.
Double sharp simbol looks like an x.

[Schlyder]

The key would be D#major.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

The key would be D#major.

It is D# minor, relative of F# major, not D# major. D# major doesn't exist in the key signatures.

[teleharmonium]

D# is not a key that is generally used, but it does exist. However, when you see a key that is outside of the usual set of 15, most likely the music is not diatonic and maybe not even tonal, so it's probably not helpful to make assumptions about a dominant chord telling you about the key.

Sharp (music) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The order of sharps in key signature notation is F♯, C♯, G♯, D♯, A♯,E♯,B♯, each extra sharp being added successively in the following sequence of major keys: C→G→D→A→E→B→F♯→C♯. (These are sometimes learned using an acrostic phrase as a mnemonic, for example Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle.) Similarly the order of flats is based on the same natural notes in reverse order: B♭, E♭, A♭, D♭, G♭, C♭, F♭, encountered in the following series of major keys: C→F→B♭→E♭→A♭→D♭→G♭→C♭.

In the above progression, key C♯ (with seven sharps) may be more conveniently written as the harmonically equivalent key D♭ (with five flats), and likewise C♭ (with seven flats) written as B (with five sharps). Nonetheless, it is possible to extend the order of sharp keys yet further, through C♯→G♯→D♯→A♯→E♯→B♯→Fdouble sharp→Cdouble sharp, adding the double-sharped notes Fdouble sharp, Cdouble sharp, Gdouble sharp, Ddouble sharp, Adouble sharp, Edouble sharp and finally Bdouble sharp, and similarly for the flat keys, but with progressively decreasing convenience and usage.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

The key would be D#major.

Would be a lot easier to use Eb minor. People reading it would hate you a lot less.

[Matthew_84]

The A#7 chord came from the first chord of a progression that I was writing, and the key is A# major in a mixolydian mode. I did realize that the Bb7 would make it easier, but regardless, the question came about and I didn't know how to answer it.

Thanks a lot everyone.

[Cloverfield]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Would be a lot easier to use Eb minor. People reading it would hate you a lot less.

This is true.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

The A#7 chord came from the first chord of a progression that I was writing, and the key is A# major in a mixolydian mode. I did realize that the Bb7 would make it easier, but regardless, the question came about and I didn't know how to answer it.

Thanks a lot everyone.

There's your problem. Use Bb. There is no key of A# major, at least not for any practical purpose. It may exist in theory, but you'll never see it written out because the key signature would require double sharps, and because there is no advtange to A# compared to using the enharmonically equivalent Bb.

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Would be a lot easier to use Eb minor. People reading it would hate you a lot less.

You mean Ebmajor. Yes the boys in the band would be less prone to shoving you in the bass drum.
I suppose I should have added the obligatory after the D#major. LOL
Although rather fun when you get to call the key of a tune, and you say D# major, and watch the heads explode.

[anonymous101511]

why not a 'D' natural?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Febs

There's your problem. Use Bb. There is no key of A# major, at least not for any practical purpose. It may exist in theory, but you'll never see it written out because the key signature would require double sharps, and because there is no advtange to A# compared to using the enharmonically equivalent Bb.

All these keys you guys are saying don't exist do exist, but they're very unwieldy to use when writing them out as you said.

Vail, I think he was trying to stay in the correct idiom for A# by using C##, so I imagine that's why he didn't use D.

Matthew, you need to bone up on the enharmonic equivalents, that's all. When you come to a chord that has weirdness like C## to make it work, think to yourself whether you shouldn't use its enharmonic equivalent, which is D. But once you get it figured out, you need to stick with it for all chords in that key...like if you're in the key of Bb and you want to use your D# chord, call it an Eb to keep it in the same relativity to the key.

Believe it or not, I get a lot of charts on my gigs where the writer wil mix stuff up like that, and it drives me up a wall. F#/Gb is the worst offender. Like they'll write a chart in Gb, then when it gets to the 4th chord, which should be Cb, they'll write B instead because it's easier. IDIOTS!!! Write the damn chart in F#, for crying out loud!

[Febs]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

All these keys you guys are saying don't exist do exist, but they're very unwieldy to use when writing them out as you said.

Agree. That's why I said they exist in theory, but not for any practical purpose. You're never going to be handed a chart in A# or E# because they could be written more effectively in Bb or F.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Matthew, you need to bone up on the enharmonic equivalents, that's all. When you come to a chord that has weirdness like C## to make it work, think to yourself whether you shouldn't use its enharmonic equivalent, which is D. But once you get it figured out, you need to stick with it for all chords in that key...like if you're in the key of Bb and you want to use your D# chord, call it an Eb to keep it in the same relativity to the key.

Believe it or not, I get a lot of charts on my gigs where the writer wil mix stuff up like that, and it drives me up a wall. F#/Gb is the worst offender. Like they'll write a chart in Gb, then when it gets to the 4th chord, which should be Cb, they'll write B instead because it's easier. IDIOTS!!! Write the damn chart in F#, for crying out loud!

Yeah I was almost just going to write is a D, but I knew that was wrong, hence the question. And as I was typing out the OP, I realized that Bb would make it work, and then I changed everything I was working on, but I still wanted to know the answer.

My theory, clearly, still needs some work. But I'm working on it, and you guys are helping tremendously. Thanks again.