Can rhythm be taught?

[Chuck King]

I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this, but I figure there may be instructors here who will have some insight.

I have a band with some friends from work. We've been playing together for a little while and it started out as a "just for fun" project with some pals (none of them had ever been in bands or, in some cases, played their instruments, before we got togther) but we're at a point where it's starting to possibly morph into a "real" band.

A possible impediment to this is that one of the band members, our keyboard player, seems to be devoid of any sense of rhythm. Unless he's playing along with somebody else, his timing is all over the place, speeding up and whatnot, but what I think is a bigger problem is that he seems to have no "feel" at all for where the beat is, i.e., he can't "feel" one, for instance. So in songs where he is supposed to play something that comes in on one, he'll come in a beat or two ahead or behind, and God forbid he has to play a line that, say, starts on the "and" of three.

In any other circumstance I'd dump him or quit, but there is a social aspect to this group and I'd like to keep it going and moving forward if we can. But, I'm not interested in facilitating people's Walter Mitty-esque "Hey, I'm a musician in a band!" fantasies. There are plenty of programs where you pay your money and you get to be in a "band"---nobody's paying me for this.

So what I really want to know is, can that sort of rhythmic sense be learned, or is it just something you're born with (or not)? I don't want to push the poor guy to do something that he may just be mentally or physically incapable of doing, but if there are methods or exercises that he could be doing to improve his timing and rhythmic sense, I certainly want to guide him in that direction.

Thanks!

[Soverntear]

metronome, metronome and some more metronome. my timing was TERRIBLE then i bought a metronome and its 100% better

[bigntasty]

My personal experience is that if a person doesn't have rhythm, it's not going to rub off on him or be taught. I watched a guitarist try his heart out for 2 years, but no matter who he played with or how hard he tried, he kind of ended up looking like Steve Martin trying to keep time with the singing in "The Jerk". It was sad...

[jwbassman]

Originally Posted by Chuck King

I'm not sure if this is the proper place for this, but I figure there may be instructors here who will have some insight.

I have a band with some friends from work. We've been playing together for a little while and it started out as a "just for fun" project with some pals (none of them had ever been in bands or, in some cases, played their instruments, before we got togther) but we're at a point where it's starting to possibly morph into a "real" band.

A possible impediment to this is that one of the band members, our keyboard player, seems to be devoid of any sense of rhythm. Unless he's playing along with somebody else, his timing is all over the place, speeding up and whatnot, but what I think is a bigger problem is that he seems to have no "feel" at all for where the beat is, i.e., he can't "feel" one, for instance. So in songs where he is supposed to play something that comes in on one, he'll come in a beat or two ahead or behind, and God forbid he has to play a line that, say, starts on the "and" of three.

In any other circumstance I'd dump him or quit, but there is a social aspect to this group and I'd like to keep it going and moving forward if we can. But, I'm not interested in facilitating people's Walter Mitty-esque "Hey, I'm a musician in a band!" fantasies. There are plenty of programs where you pay your money and you get to be in a "band"---nobody's paying me for this.

So what I really want to know is, can that sort of rhythmic sense be learned, or is it just something you're born with (or not)? I don't want to push the poor guy to do something that he may just be mentally or physically incapable of doing, but if there are methods or exercises that he could be doing to improve his timing and rhythmic sense, I certainly want to guide him in that direction.

Thanks!

I feel that rhythm is something that can be learned over time. I think that it's a skill that can be honed with practice and that the best thing is to keep playing with other musicians.

If I were you I'd stick with it and see if he comes around. My opinion is that some people pick up on it a lot faster that others. The best thing for him to do is get some play along exercises. I don't really have any suggestion on material though. I don't play piano or keyboards.

[Yerf Dog]

Yes, but condoms are still safer.

[bassy7]

He needs to learn how to break down the beat. Try to pass on some of the fundamentals to hime.

Teach him how to tap his foot on the 1 2 3 4 as well how to subdivide and count those beats into 8ths and sixteenths. There is no shame in counting it out to himself until hear internalizes it.

[cynical-rabbit]

I think almost anyone can learn decent rhythm, I've improved greatly since I took up bass guitar a year ago, and I still need to improve much more to be considered a good bassist.

However, maybe some people just aren't capable. By a metronome and see what happens.

[Ewo]

IME, time is a skill just as pitch is a skill. You start from whatever your level of innate talent, and you put in the practice to develop it.

Listening carefully to good performances helps greatly, too. I count serious listening as practice, because I visualize playing what I'm hearing. With regard to time, you listen to where all the instruments sit in the pocket.

I've found a metronome to be helpful, and playing to a drum box, also. I know that some heavy hitters disagree (U know who, right?), but that's my experience. I'll work on a passage until it's comfortable in my head (the visualization) and under my fingers, then put on the click or groove and put it right where I want in relation to the pulse.


Edit: thought of one more thing that might be of help to your bandmate. Again, IME: one reason somebody's time can be raggedy is that the passage is on the bleeding edge of his/her technique. IOW, the player is so worried about just making the notes that the time/feel/pocket/groove are lower priority.

The remedy for that might be to practice the fingerings to where it's a no-brainer (literally!), then focus the attention on the time. Worth a try, I figure.

[guroove]

IMO, rhythm cannot be taught, but it can be learned. It is not upon a teacher, but the one who is doing the learning that the burden has to fall. You can teach someone how to count, and remind them to do it, but feel is something that has to be learned. And no one is born with the ability to play music with good rhythm, although some people are born with a stronger innate ability to count and play in steady time.

[bassy7]

I'll hash this out quickly, I hope it helps.

When I was trying to get the hang of ryhthmic variations to help me with reggae grooves I would practice strictly rythm pattern with a guitarist.

this sounds boring but it will help..... make sure you are playing the same note as he is, or chord, but dont make a progression out of it, keep him focused on understanding the rythm... here are some very simply things to do with him. Once he gets the hand of it you can mix it up and changes rythmic pattersn with him every measure or so.

Start by having him play a single note or chord on the down beat- and you do the same- while he is counting so he know where the 1 is.


Then have him only play on the 1 and 3 while you play only on the 2 and 4.

You play the 1,2,3,4 and then he plays the upbeat between them. Once he gets that down, see if he can alternate so that you play the upbeats and he play the downs.

Have him try to play the singular 16 note on either side of the up beat while you play the upbeat. Then have him play the upbeat while you play the 16ths on each of the upbeats.

There are endless ways to configure these things, but I you practice them they should really help him out.

[tobo]

Originally Posted by guroove

IMO, rhythm cannot be taught, but it can be learned. It is not upon a teacher, but the one who is doing the learning that the burden has to fall. You can teach someone how to count, and remind them to do it, but feel is something that has to be learned. And no one is born with the ability to play music with good rhythm, although some people are born with a stronger innate ability to count and play in steady time.

yeah,

Id say its a bit like natural talent.. you can teach people scales etc, and make them a better musician, but you obviously cannot teach talent

rhythm is probably a bit similar.. you can teach "counting" and things.. hell never be a jazz drummer , but you should be able to make him sufficient..

[pacojas]

forget all you've heard just now and,... "TEACH THAT GUY HOW TO DANCE!!!!"

[megadan]

My band is learning together and I always count out loud. Get everyone to count out loud until you can do without it. It's embarrassing, but educational.

[guroove]

Maybe I've gotten cynical over the years, but I don't think you can teach any adult who seems to have NO sense of rhythm to be sufficient enough that it would be passable or tolerable to play with, in any realistic amount of time.

[Mr. Mig]

A metronome helped me out big time.

[Calaverasgrande]

practice against a drum machine. That will tighten you up good since it isnt accomodating you!
That said, hey it the bassists JOB to keep the other cats in line adn on time.
We function as the lynchpin between the drummers beat and the guitarist/keyboardists melody. I like to say the drums are the bones, the bass is the muscle and tendon, the guitars/keys are the skin.
Vocals, thats the hair.

[T-MOST]

Yes it can. You have to be taught "how" to listen for it. Then you must practice listening and playing within it. Some people will learn it better than others, of course. luckily I came by it naturally.

[DWBass]

My personal opinion is.....NO! I'm just speaking from my own personal experience with playing with a keyboardist who had zero rhythm! God forbid we delved into some funk, which requires an inate sense of rhythm!! Even watching him dance made us cringe. And this cat was in his late 40's-early 50's.

[Roy Vogt]

A lot of time what seems to be a timing problem is really a technique/music problem. Try this:
Give your keyboardist one note only (say a middle C) and see if he can play just that note in time with your drummer. Chances are he can. If he's attempting to play the piano intro to, say, Styx's "Come Sail Away" his timing issues may be related to executing the part. The secret is to practice the part SLOW and OUT OF TIME (how's that for counter-intuitive?) until he knows what he needs to play and then gradually speed up his part with either a metronome or, even better, the band. See if this helps.....

[Calebmundy]

Maybe:

http://vimeo.com/9625670

But, serioulsy folks, in my opinion, there is a base sense of rhthym that everyone has to a certain degree. To that end, some people just have great rhythm, and some people can be taught easily, and some people can be taught with a lot of difficulty, but I think there are people who will never learn.