Can some explain the theory behind this?

[u84six]

Hi,
I'm working on a song that someone wrote, and one of the bars has this chord progression: F#m, B, D, and back to F#m (it's a fairly slow song, too, so you hang on those chords for a while). Why is it that my ear wants to play these notes over the D at the end of the progression: A, Ab, E. I can understand that the A is the 5th, but what about the Ab and the E? Does that make any sense? I mean, they're not even chord tones of D. I don't understand why this sounds good to me, and I don't want to use it if it's not going to really work for everyone else's ear.

[Already In Use]

Sounds Ok here too. Just a walk down to the F#.

[HeadyVan Halen]

F# is the 'home' key.
Ab is 2 and E is minor 7.
Yes, danielson, you are starting to 'listen' now instead of playing scales.


Insert some guy saying what I said in 3 paragraphs..........right.......about......now

[Muzoid]

Wasn't it Myles Davis that said

"if it sounds good, it IS good"

There's the theory

[u84six]

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

F# is the 'home' key.
Ab is 2 and E is minor 7.
Yes, danielson, you are starting to 'listen' now instead of playing scales.

Insert some guy saying what I said in 3 paragraphs..........right.......about......now

How does that explain why it sounds good over a D major chord? Ab is not the 2, and the E is not a chord tone of D major. I'm confused.

[Buxtehude]

It's not Ab. It's G#: the 2nd note of F# melodic minor or F# Dorian (this is more likely). In other words the G# is a regular scale tone in F# minor. Hope this helps.

[u84six]

Originally Posted by Buxtehude

It's not Ab. It's G#: the 2nd note of F# melodic minor or F# Dorian (this is more likely). In other words the G# is a regular scale tone in F# minor. Hope this helps.

That doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for the note name correction.

[Muzoid]

Originally Posted by Buxtehude

It's not Ab. It's G#

Oh hell ya!!!!!!!

[pengyou40]

Sounds like maybe you're playing in the key of F# minor. The scale is: F#, G# A, B, C#, D, E, F#. The interval between F# and A is three half steps ( a minor third ). This interval is very harmonic and sounds good. The A/flat you're talking about is also known as a 'G#'. It's interval from the F# and the G# is a major 2nd. The interval between the F# and the D is a minor 6th and also has a great minor sound like the minor 3rd.

Just for fun...if the key is F# Minor (Aeolian), here are the other modes:

G# Locrian, A Ionian (A major), B Dorian, C# Phrygian, D Lydian, E Mixolydian.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by u84six

Hi,
I'm working on a song that someone wrote, and one of the bars has this chord progression: F#m, B, D, and back to F#m (it's a fairly slow song, too, so you hang on those chords for a while). Why is it that my ear wants to play these notes over the D at the end of the progression: A, Ab, E. I can understand that the A is the 5th, but what about the Ab and the E? Does that make any sense? I mean, they're not even chord tones of D. I don't understand why this sounds good to me, and I don't want to use it if it's not going to really work for everyone else's ear.

I assume the song is in F#m with these notes = F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E, F#.
A, Ab is just working the 3rd. That's understandable - calling attention to the minor key.
Then to E. E is the 7th note or sub tonic that likes to move to the tonic F#. So you end up accomplishing your goal which was to get to F#.

Only flaw with this is that the B chord should be a Bm to stay in key. But, I do not think enters into the question.

[BillyIVbass]

G# or Ab is going to sound good, because it gives Dmajor a Lydian sound. E sounds nice because it fills in the gap between D and F#

[u84six]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. From what some of you are describing is that because the scale tones are F# melodic minor, the tones can be played over the D major because the D major chord is in fact a chord in the F# minor scale, correct?

[Grantrudd]

You are in the key of F# minor, which is the relative minor of A major. so you have the notes A B C# D E F# G#. D is the IVmaj7 chord of A major, and the correct chord scale for the IVmaj7 chord is lydian, so that G# (or Ab as you are referring to it) is the #4 scale degree (or #11 tension). hope this clears things up for you.

also if you are thinking of it in D major ( D E F# G A B C#) the G is an "avoid note" so to make it sound good you change it to a G#. i would think of this progression in F# minor (A major) though.

it would probably be worth it for you to dig into modes and diatonic chords in the near future so you can understand this concept a bit better.

[BillyIVbass]

Take apart a D chord; D F# and A, yes they are all notes that are shared by F# minor.

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by BillyIVbass

G# or Ab is going to sound good, because it gives Dmajor a Lydian sound. E sounds nice because it fills in the gap between D and F#

i would concur ....this may sound complex but it is exactly what makes those notes kick!

[Stick_Player]

Such misguidance on modes here.

Are we sure the chords are truly: | F#m | B | D | F#m|

???

Sure that B chord isn't B Minor?

There are no D Lydians. No one writes in modes anymore, unless you are doing a soundtrack for a pirate movie, use Phrygian or a jazz hipster. And modes do not occur every chord change.

The key, based on the information (sort of) supplied, is simply F# Minor (three sharps) - changing that B to B minor. Most likely the G# is labeled a passing non-chord tone and the E the same or perhaps an 'added' chord tone (i.e., Dadd2).

In the key of F# Minor, a D Major chord with a G# in it (for the full length of said chord) at best would be labeled an Augmented 11th (+11). This is NOT a D Lydian Chord.

Nothing more than Diatonic Chords (i, iv, VI, i)

[Groove Doctor]

Originally Posted by u84six

How does that explain why it sounds good over a D major chord? Ab is not the 2, and the E is not a chord tone of D major. I'm confused.

Here's something that might mess with you head a little bit (sorry) - You're not actually playing over a chord, what you're playing defines the chord and they're playing some notes over you.

I'll repeat that because it's SOOO important to understand:
The notes you're playing actually define what the chord is!!


Bass: A G# E
Guitar: D F# A
Result (at least to my ear): E 11
= E G# (B omitted) D F# A

To stop confusion stick with describing chords and scales with only sharps or only flats, and don't mix them together. Theory 101.

Now go to a piano or guitar and play a Dmajor chord with E bass note = D on E, D over E, or D/E.
Now stick a G# in there somewhere = E 11. Is that what you're hearing in your head?

Chord names are simply a way to describe to other people what you hear in your head. Maybe that's not what the person who wrote it was thinking, so he might reject it without listening properly. Or he might like it better.

Either way, you're hearing 5 part harmony in your head and didn't realize it. Congratulations!!! Keep writing lines like that and play with more people where you get the opportunity to write bass lines like that. It's incredibly rewarding and yet another reason why I love playing bass

[Grantrudd]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Such misguidance on modes here.

Are we sure the chords are truly: | F#m | B | D | F#m|

???

Sure that B chord isn't B Minor?

There are no D Lydians. No one writes in modes anymore, unless you are doing a soundtrack for a pirate movie, use Phrygian or a jazz hipster. And modes do not occur every chord change.

The key, based on the information (sort of) supplied, is simply F# Minor (three sharps) - changing that B to B minor. Most likely the G# is labeled a passing non-chord tone and the E the same or perhaps an 'added' chord tone (i.e., Dadd2).

In the key of F# Minor, a D Major chord with a G# in it (for the full length of said chord) at best would be labeled an Augmented 11th (+11). This is NOT a D Lydian Chord.

Nothing more than Diatonic Chords (i, iv, VI, i)

I was simply trying to explain why the notes he was interested in, A G# and E work over the D major chord in his progression. modes do not change every chord change, but CHORD SCALES can and do if you want to use the correct tensions and chord tones over a certain chord.

as for the labeling of the D chord, if it were derived from the Lydian scale, it would either be a triad, as he has notated here, Dmaj7 if he is using the major 7, or if you wanted to emphasize the lydian sound it would be a Dmaj7(#11), a very commonly labeled chord in many jazz standards.

The B chord in the second bar could be a typo, or there are many different functions that this chord could be serving, (modal interchange, secondary dominant, alternate function dominants...)

but in the end, its what sounds good that matters right? theory is only used to explain why things sound good, keep on using that ear

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

F# is the 'home' key.
Ab is 2 and E is minor 7.
Yes, danielson, you are starting to 'listen' now instead of playing scales.


Insert some guy saying what I said in 3 paragraphs..........right.......about......now

Scary with that prediction huh?
Look kid, I ain't never been to music skool and I would have rather scraped my eyes and ears off than be in 'High School Jazz Ensemble', but it works because:
1. it sounds good
and
2. Our (your) ear is still hearing F# Minor as the Tonal Center so Ab and E work fine even if it isn't exactly in the 'D' scale. You think jazz players only play scales of each passing chord and that's it?

You=1
Music=0

[Groove Doctor]

Can you give us some more chords in the song. Put it in context.
A slow ballad, playing with guitar or keyboard or both? Jazz, pop, blues?