Can someon give me some help undertsnading modes?

[Vacume]

ok i undertsnad that there are 7 modes, because they are all derived from each note in the major scale. so dos that mean a mode is just starting the major scale from a note in a diffrent major scale so if i was playing a c major scale, but instead played it on D why wouldnt they just call that a D major scale? i know that must be wrong but im a little confused

[Richard Lindsey]

Scales/Modes-What's the difference?

[Tehdouglas]

Someone will probably post something more descriptive, but here’s a short explanation:

So the notes in a Cmaj are C D E F G A B

If you use the same formula (or pattern) on a D, you have a D major scale. This is D E F# G A B C#

But if you play the C major scale starting on D, you would be playing D E F G A B C

The difference between C maj starting on C and starting on D is that the scale is centered on the D instead of the C, therefore all of the other notes sound different because they’re not centered on the C. So give it a try, play a C major and then play it starting on all of the different notes to play the modes. Then you can use this new information to discover how each mode is created. I'll give one example: Starting on D its D E F G A B C. So the formula is W H W W W H. This formula can be applied to any other note to create that scale, its just a matter of memorizing what this particular pattern is called, which is the Dorian mode. So pick a note, say G, and apply W H W W W H to it: G A Bb C D E F. That’s G Dorian.

Hope this helped, keep pluckin.

[iplaybassguitar]

to put it very shortly....it means that it starts on a different note...but the notes stay the same..

so if you play a c major scale, that is the first mode....

then if you start on d, you play all of the notes in the C major scale...therefore it isnt the same as D major.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Tehdouglas

Someone will probably post something more descriptive, but here’s a short explanation:

So the notes in a Cmaj are C D E F G A B

If you use the same formula (or pattern) on a D, you have a D major scale. This is D E F# G A B C#

But if you play the C major scale starting on D, you would be playing D E F G A B C

The difference between C maj starting on C and starting on D is that the scale is centered on the D instead of the C, therefore all of the other notes sound different because they’re not centered on the C. So give it a try, play a C major and then play it starting on all of the different notes to play the modes. Then you can use this new information to discover how each mode is created. I'll give one example: Starting on D its D E F G A B C. So the formula is W H W W W H. This formula can be applied to any other note to create that scale, its just a matter of memorizing what this particular pattern is called, which is the Dorian mode. So pick a note, say G, and apply W H W W W H to it: G A Bb C D E F. That’s G Dorian.

Hope this helped, keep pluckin.

To extend this a little further, take all those W-H patterns and apply them from the same starting point--C, D, or whatever takes your fancy. E.g.:

C Ionian (WWHWWWH): C D E F G A B C
C Dorian (WHWWWHW): C D Eb F G A Bb C
C Phrygian (HWWWHWW): C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
C Lydian (WWWHWWH): C D E F# G A B C
C Mixolydian (WWHWWHW): C D E F G A Bb C
C Aeolian (WHWWHWW): C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
C Locrian (HWWHWWW): C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

[ryco]

Lydian = Major scale with a raised (augmented) 4th
Ionian = Major scale
Mixolydian = Major scale with a lowered (minor) 7th; also called Dominant
Dorian = Natural Minor scale with a raised (major) 6th; [b3 b7]
Aeolian = Natural Minor scale; aka pure minor; [b3 b7 b6]
Phrygian = Natural Minor scale with a lowered 2nd; [b3 b7 b6 b2]
Locrian = Half-diminished scale; features a lowered (diminished) 5th; [b3 b5 b7 b6 b2]

summary:

Three major scales; one with a raised step, one with a lowered step, one natural diatonic.
Three minor scales; one with a raised step, one with a lowered step, one natural diatonic
One half-diminished

[jvbjr]

There are a lot more than 7 modes, 21 is the basic set and then you can experiment with the other more exotics if you choose.

While it is true that D Dorian is the same thing as C Ionian, that is not the purpose of learning the modes.

To me the concept is all about voice leading. Say you see a D-7 chord, and the key signature is F. Normally you'd be inclined to play D Aeolian. However, maybe the next chord coming along is an Eb. By knowing that aeolian has a b3, b6 & b7 and that Dorian has a b2, b3, b6 & b7, you might want to play D Dorian in place of the diatonically correct mode of D Aeolian to incorporate that b2 (Eb) note to create a smooth lead in to the next chord which is outside the key signature. This is just one simple example of why we bother learning this stuff.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Vacume

ok i undertsnad that there are 7 modes, because they are all derived from each note in the major scale. so dos that mean a mode is just starting the major scale from a note in a diffrent major scale

No! Well, yes. It's easy to understand once you know that there's more to a scale than the names of its notes. Another important aspect is the scale's tonic (the note that marks the beginning of the scale). The existence of a tonic changes a scale from a group of pitches to a pattern with a beginning and end (the tonic) and with other defining features (such as a major third rather than a minor).

So while every mode shares its notes with a bunch of others, their different tonics give them wildly different contexts, and therefore a different sound. You're likely familiar with the fact that the major scale and the natural minor scale share the same pattern. You're probably also aware that they sound very different. This is all because the tonic falls at a different place in the pattern, making it look completely different. Rather than getting a major third, sixth, and seventh, you get minor ones. A new perspective works wonders.

The modes are the same sort of thing. The differing tonics ensure that every note in the scale will have a characteristic relationship to the tonic. So while the notes in G Mixolydian do have the same notes as C major, using G as the tonic means that the seventh is flatted. In practice this turns out to be a big difference. Try playing C Ionian then C Mixolydian, and compare the two.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by jvbjr

There are a lot more than 7 modes, 21 is the basic set and then you can experiment with the other more exotics if you choose.

While it is true that D Dorian is the same thing as C Ionian, that is not the purpose of learning the modes.

To me the concept is all about voice leading. Say you see a D-7 chord, and the key signature is F. Normally you'd be inclined to play D Aeolian. However, maybe the next chord coming along is an Eb. By knowing that aeolian has a b3, b6 & b7 and that Dorian has a b2, b3, b6 & b7, you might want to play D Dorian in place of the diatonically correct mode of D Aeolian to incorporate that b2 (Eb) note to create a smooth lead in to the next chord which is outside the key signature. This is just one simple example of why we bother learning this stuff.

I believe you meant D phrygian, no?

But in any case, I would say it's not always necessary to think of yourself as being in a different mode every time you change chords. IMHO it can actually be counterproductive and overly complicated in mnay cases. Example: If you have a progression that goes something like F D- Eb F in the key of F, there's no need to think of yourself as going from an F mode to a D mode to an Eb mode to an F mode. You can think of yourself as being in F mixolydian throughout, and just emphasize different notes within F mixolydian to express the harmonic movement.

[Phil Smith]

Why even think in modes? Why not just deal with the notes of the chord and how they move in conjunction with the movement of the melody?

[jvbjr]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I believe you meant D phrygian, no?

Yes you are correct, typing error, sorry.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

Why even think in modes? Why not just deal with the notes of the chord and how they move in conjunction with the movement of the melody?

Because sometimes modes are just the thing you want. I think it's valuable to have the array of tonal palettes they offer on hand. On the other hand, I think that modes are the most abused concept in music theory. Most of the time chords are the way to go. My take is that if you're trying to use modes in your soloing you're coming at it from entirely the wrong angle. You should always be thinking sounds then playing them, and theory is your sanity check (will a B flat clash with this chord?) rather than your guide.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by lemur821

Because sometimes modes are just the thing you want. I think it's valuable to have the array of tonal palettes they offer on hand. On the other hand, I think that modes are the most abused concept in music theory. Most of the time chords are the way to go. My take is that if you're trying to use modes in your soloing you're coming at it from entirely the wrong angle. You should always be thinking sounds then playing them, and theory is your sanity check (will a B flat clash with this chord?) rather than your guide.

You don't need theory to hear that something doesn't work. I think your sanity check is whether or not you're actually, really, listening.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

You don't need theory to hear that something doesn't work. I think your sanity check is whether or not you're actually, really, listening.

Actually any note will work it is all in how it is used. Extremely crude example play a walking line and play chord tones on the strong beats and anything you want on weak beats. You will find the ear very accepting or anything on weak beats. This is why cromatic approach notes work, or even chromatic lines because at the end you will resolve to a chord or scale tone. Also as your learn/play more your ear becomes accepting of notes you might not of liked before.

As Chick Corea once said... It's not what you play outside, its all about how you come back in.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

You don't need theory to hear that something doesn't work. I think your sanity check is whether or not you're actually, really, listening.

That's not what I meant. Theory is a good way to check your playing before you do it, especially if you have trouble picturing the soundscape a few bars ahead and where your note would fall in it. If you're trying to be harmonically unobtrusive then you need to make sure you aren't going to start throwing tritones in because that's where your melody was going. Sure, you can just picture the sound in your mind (assuming you are that skilled), but it's awfully easy to know that according to theory the note you're thinking of is not going to turn out the way you want it to. Alarm bells can start going off before you play it.

[Depth_Charge]

Maybe off topic but I've been teaching myself to regurgitate tabs etc for many years and while I've played in a few bands I've only started taking a real interest in music theory and playing properly when I started writing my own music recently.

I have to admit while I'm excited to read threads on theory here, I find most discussions about it distracting and disheartening.

There seems to be a lot of shared terms and varied opinions on theory which make it hard for beginners like me to understand or rely on what's being discussed.

I've got long service leave early next year (3 months off work woohoo!!!) and am planning to spend some time and coin on some bass lessons, but after reading this thread and getting completely lost, I just wanted to get it off my chest