Can you learn better from playing along?

[Fergie Fulton]

The whole question is
" can you learn better by playing along to bass lines without the volume of your own playing up to interfere with what is on the recording"
In essence what you hear is the recorded bass line but your fingers move as if you are playing it.

For the sake of a bit of background to this i was involved in a RTA over two years ago, broke my neck, and suffer from nerve damage to my hands. Part of the problem is that they do not respond fast or efficiently when playing, as i cannot always feel the tips of my fingers.
What i think about playing and what i actually play can seem like a badly dubbed movie, my senses do not all function together to make the sounds my brain hears. So i work with visual shapes and audio senses to make sense of playing lines, if it looks right then it will sound right (if the bass is in tune).

I was in the studio a few days ago recording for the BBC.
Now because i practice visual shapes i stayed in the room all the time and ran the shapes i was going to record, the rest of the band went to the booth to listen to the takes. I forgot to take my headphones off so i got a playback of the recording.
I just started to play along with it in my headphones, and found that it was easy to play, my hands just moved to where they had to be and my fingers moved with a better freedom than i had when i recorded....there was no need to look at my hands for visual shapes. I took the headphones off and started to play the lines again, but this time they were laboured till i started to use visual shapes again.

Each time that day i played along to a recording with my volume off so i used the recorded sound, my hands worked better, the fingers moved better and the need to visually represent my hands was not needed so much.

Fast forward to the next day. I put on lots of songs i have recorded and played along to them with them, bass not plugged in so only the sound of the recording.
Again i found when i played along it was far easier than actually trying to play it where i generate the sound of the lines. It is almost as if because the line is always going to be correct, then all my hands have to do is move with it. But when i play it on its own, my own problems get in the way so the hands hesitate or try and anticipate problems...basically i get in my own way.

So the question is
"in learning a new song would it be easier to just play along with the recording, bass un-plugged, as if it is your playing that you are listening to till you brain and hand form the coordination to play it?

I can say that today, my hands have worked better than at any time since the accident. I believe playing along to the recordings left my brain with only one task to focus on...moving the fingers the way they should. The problems of touch, tone, technique, even making mistakes, does not get in the way because they cannot be heard. Because they cannot be heard the brain do not try and compensate the hands it just lets them move to the recorded sound of the bass. The brain accepts that the recorded sound is me playing because my fingering correspond to where the notes are on the fretboard and the plucking of the fingers. My brain is now in sync to the sound not with my hands, so no badly dubbed movie anymore. The benefit of this is that when i play along for long periods of time my brain accepts the recorded sound as me, so it reinforces a natural sense of familiarity when i play on my own. The feeling is one of "i can play this", because i have done so already, over and over with no problems.

So is anyone willing to try this idea?
All you need is a song that you know but struggle with.
Play along to it for say 20-40mins. with the idea that you are fingering the recorded bass line, the sound you hear is you playing. Play along to it right or wrong, do not stop to correct just play along and let me know if it helps to improve the part you had trouble with when you play it on your own without the recording. Any other insights welcomed.
Thanks.

[plangentmusic]

I think it's one way to practice but as a sole form it'd create too many bad habits. Music is sound, and you have to learn to trust your ears and not just depend on visual patterns.

[dvh]

If I understand you correctly what you are basically describing is ‘muscle memory’. If you’ve played and practiced enough the fingers know where to go without having to consciously think about it.

However, I think to learn a song by – essentially – imagining you are playing it but without hearing what you’re actually playing is not wise. If your fingers are not going to the right places, how do you hear it? Then you need to unlearn the muscle memory that has started to develop.

I think that is true also if you’re using visual clues, for example, watching the fretboard. If you watch yourself playing an F and the recording is in fact playing an F# you will have to unlearn that when you start to actually listen to the tune.

Or am I totally misunderstanding what you’re saying?

[OtterOnBass]

That's how I learn music. I turn down lower than the song and play along. It helps me find where my understanding of the song is off.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

That's how I learn music. I turn down lower than the song and play along. It helps me find where my understanding of the song is off.

But, you can still hear yourself... right?

[T-MOST]

I turn up just a little louder than the recording so I know which bass is mine and which is the recording. If I make a mistake I hear it because it's not burried under the track. It just makes more sense "to me" that way. Also I don't want to "rely" on visuals. Yes, I do glance at my fingers from time to time but I do it a little as possible so I'm not at a huge disadvantage if I can't or don't look.

[odin70]

You may have a point...but that would be really boring in the long run. I prefere to hear myself when i practise.

[dtiii]

T-MOST describes the 'play-along' experience the same way that I approach it. I feel that after I learn the line it is important to 'be the bass player' when practicing it with a recording. Playing the tune from my laptop enables me to fully assume that role due to the lack of bass frequencies. To the OP... if what you are doing works considering your history of injury then by all means continue that way. If you are active on the music scene and getting work, especially as a recording bassist then it can't be getting in the way that much... I guess.

d

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by dvh

If I understand you correctly what you are basically describing is ‘muscle memory’. If you’ve played and practiced enough the fingers know where to go without having to consciously think about it.

However, I think to learn a song by – essentially – imagining you are playing it but without hearing what you’re actually playing is not wise. If your fingers are not going to the right places, how do you hear it? Then you need to unlearn the muscle memory that has started to develop.

I think that is true also if you’re using visual clues, for example, watching the fretboard. If you watch yourself playing an F and the recording is in fact playing an F# you will have to unlearn that when you start to actually listen to the tune.

Or am I totally misunderstanding what you’re saying?

Sort of missing the point, its not about replacing learning by ear but finding out if we can enhance with other senses.
Our senses are combined, our brain works out certain points and situations within these senses to make a complete picture.
Again today i have worked more on this with good results. I am it seems tricking my brain into using my hands and fingers in a much free-er way.

I am beginning to see a connection,that because my brain believes it is me playing, my neural networks connect better with my hands.
Muscle "memory" for the want of a better phrase does not exist..muscles have no memory, the so called memory are neuro-paths to the brain.
Mine have been damaged, but this technique is reinforcing to me that i have no problem in playing, (is this just because of my long history of playing and training, or is it something all player have in them regardless of experience?)

Remember these are lines that i wrote and recorded, but could not play them because of the damage. Whether i play them right or wrong does not seem to matter as i can only hear what is right.
It seems that my brain has a clearer neuro-muscular route because it is hearing the correct lines flowing, rather than my disjointed efforts, so the finger work better.

Strange aside to this accident was that i "lost" the ability to sight read????? Apart from the obvious problems of visually having to place my hands, i lost the ability to follow music by sight reading.
This afternoon i have got out some basic books and was able to follow them better.

The art of looking at a score and playing what you see on the page is a visual representation in sound, much the same as me looking at my hands and working out where to put them..many senses working to one end.

All i am asking is that players who know a song, but always seem to trip on one part, to try and play along to it with no volume so the brain believes it is their playing it is hearing and see if they can get passed or improve the part that trips them up.
Just let me know if it was better/worse or just the same.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by dtiii

T-MOST describes the 'play-along' experience the same way that I approach it. I feel that after I learn the line it is important to 'be the bass player' when practicing it with a recording. Playing the tune from my laptop enables me to fully assume that role due to the lack of bass frequencies. To the OP... if what you are doing works considering your history of injury then by all means continue that way. If you are active on the music scene and getting work, especially as a recording bassist then it can't be getting in the way that much... I guess.

d

I think you have the experience i am feeling, "being the player" describes it best.
With me i am listening to me "being myself" without the injuries and for some reason my brain is letting my hands work better when i let this happen.

Any other info you can share about your experiences?

[Fergie Fulton]

To all others thanks for posting, but this is not intended to take over from audible practising. Its about finding out if this process is just me or if it has wider implications.
The psyche of musicians is an important part of being one, believing you have the talent is as important as having it.....and sometimes as Xfactor can show, those with no talent but believing they have more..........well that's another thread. LOL

[Already In Use]

I practice playing along. I tune the bass out of my recordings so I am the only bass. I try to match volume levels so the recording and I sound as one. I have neck/nerve damage that affects my hands. I can relate to your problem.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Sort of missing the point, its not about replacing learning by ear but finding out if we can enhance with other senses.
Our senses are combined, our brain works out certain points and situations within these senses to make a complete picture.
Again today i have worked more on this with good results. I am it seems tricking my brain into using my hands and fingers in a much free-er way.

I am beginning to see a connection,that because my brain believes it is me playing, my neural networks connect better with my hands.
Muscle "memory" for the want of a better phrase does not exist..muscles have no memory, the so called memory are neuro-paths to the brain.
Mine have been damaged, but this technique is reinforcing to me that i have no problem in playing, (is this just because of my long history of playing and training, or is it something all player have in them regardless of experience?)

Remember these are lines that i wrote and recorded, but could not play them because of the damage. Whether i play them right or wrong does not seem to matter as i can only hear what is right.
It seems that my brain has a clearer neuro-muscular route because it is hearing the correct lines flowing, rather than my disjointed efforts, so the finger work better.

Strange aside to this accident was that i "lost" the ability to sight read????? Apart from the obvious problems of visually having to place my hands, i lost the ability to follow music by sight reading.
This afternoon i have got out some basic books and was able to follow them better.

The art of looking at a score and playing what you see on the page is a visual representation in sound, much the same as me looking at my hands and working out where to put them..many senses working to one end.

All i am asking is that players who know a song, but always seem to trip on one part, to try and play along to it with no volume so the brain believes it is their playing it is hearing and see if they can get passed or improve the part that trips them up.
Just let me know if it was better/worse or just the same.

That does clarify things, thanks. I think I understand what you are saying. I would say any technique that improves one's understanding and ability is valid.

(By the way, I'm sure anyone who uses the term 'muscle memory' knows the memory does not reside in the muscle but is as you describe...)

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by dvh

T

(By the way, I'm sure anyone who uses the term 'muscle memory' knows the memory does not reside in the muscle but is as you describe...)

LOL.... on-line you can never be sure, so i thought i would clarify the point, its not an issue with me, its just a buzz phrase.