Can you teach on old dog, new tricks?

[Fender32]

Oh boy, this is embarrassing!

If you look at my equipment list, you'll probably wonder why I'm asking this question and many of you may take an instant dislike to me after you read this, but here goes ...

I've been "playing bass" for over 20 years now, but all it's really amounted to has been copying basslines from favourite artists "by ear" (i.e. playing the records/CDs over and over until I have something very close to what they're playing). Then, in the privacy of my own own home, I repeat these "performances", over the top of the original track and usually, through headphones. What I never, ever seem to get round to, is playing the instrument on it's own, or reading any tuition books.

Over the years, I've developed a real passion for the "equipment" side of things and have got a real kick out of collecting and doing minor restoration work on guitars and basses. Hence, my interest in this forum and my relatively expensive (for someone who doesn't regularly play live) equipment. Well, that's the background and I guess I've made myself sound like an over-privilaged, bedroom-bound tosser! In fairness, that's only about 40% true.

Anyway, here's the thing; now, I'm trying to play in a band, where we're trying to come up with some original material and I find that I JUST CAN'T DO IT!

"Well, what did you expect"? I hear 500 "real" bass players asking themselves, as they read this. The thing is, I have a reasonably good grasp of most of the "technique" side of bass playing (although nothing to frighten Mark King, Les Claypool etc.) and can play quite a lot of notes, quite quickly, if required to (not that that counts for much, as I never know which notes to play and when). But, my problem is that ... there's nothing much going on in my head when I'm asked to just lay down a bassline (as I usually am, being the "most experienced" one in our fledgling band).

And this is the fundamental reason for this thread. I want to know how you guys think that I should approach climbing out of this hole and what practical steps I should take first, in order to start to generate "musical" ideas?

The band that I'm trying to work with, want to play mostly indie/rock style music, but we're open to accepting whatever style imposes itself open us, as we're all pretty new to playing in bands together (the drummer and guitarist are new to their instruments and, thank God, have more blind optimism than ability at the moment. Let's face it, someone needs to have).

My goal is fairly clear and simple, but I may be asking too much. I would like to learn some tips for;

a.) constructing strong and melodic basslines, which form the core of a song (i.e. leaving the guitar to "fill in" around them), without making them sound either too resolved (i.e. predictable/boring within each measure), or too structured in terms of how they change between verse, chorus and other sections of a song.

b.) finding the right accent notes to play over faster moving chord progressions, rather than always picking the route note on the first beat and then trying to find something to go after it (classic beginners mistake, I imagine).

Incedentally, most of the stuff that we are playing only involves major, minor, 6th and major 7th chords (Weather Report can sleep safely in their beds).

I should add that lessons from a bass teacher are not really an option for me (for a number of reasons), so I'm really interested in your tips, or your recommendations for books that might help someone in my situation.

Finally, if any of you have gone about bass playing in a similar way (i.e. very slowly before making much progress), it'd be great to hear your stories - I could really use some encouragement right now!

Thanks for reading .....

[Poop-Loops]

I only read halfway through your post, but I know what you mean. This doesn't just happen with music, it happens everywhere. I lift weights and do brazilian jiu jitsu/MMA. Every now and then I'll say "wow, I really would like to buy that rubber weight set" or "those new Atama Gi's are supposed to be real good." Then I snap out of it. Am I doing it for the equipment, or for the skill? The latter, of course.

You need to make the decision. Nothing wrong with collecting them, but you have to understand a lot of people will just call you a poseur if you do.

As for learning more, just get a good teacher. You'll be amazed at how fast you can learn with a good teacher.

EDIT: Also, as part of your pennance, you'll have to give me one of your basses.

[Dbassmon]

OK Fender32, let's talk about things logically. First, you are your own teacher in music and in all things. A mentor/teacher will help in more ways that I care to list. Shortening the learning curve is amongst the most important. If it took you 20 years to get to this point, do wish spend the next 20 years getting marginally better? So if you can not hire a teacher for what ever reason, lets talk about options.
Constructing bass lines has several components; understanding the function of the bass in the rhythm section is key, understanding what notes are in the chords of the song you are playing also key, and knowing what is stylistically what is appropriate to a particular genre.
I assume you have an idea of the function of the bass so lets move to point 2, notes in the chords. If you have a chord chart for the song the band is playing it would be helpful. If not perhaps write one or have a band mate help you. Look at the chords, are they major, minor, dominant? Do you know the difference? If not, you must learn and there are many books out there to help you if you do not. On the most bassic level, if you stick to the most elementary root, fifth you will be golden in many rock and blues situations. More sophisticated blues and rock may involve altering the 5th but let's assume simplicity to start. To move to the next step, you can outline triads(Root, third, Fifth) as part of your bass line. This certainly involves knowing if the chord is major or minor and playing the appropriate third voice. Adding additional notes will allow you to outline the 7th as dominant or M7. Adding linear motion or scaler line construction allows you additional vocabulary of approaches. Chromatic motion will allow you to involve tension and resolution as notes that do not belong to the chord must resolve to a chord to tone to sound right. The tension added by non chord tones adds harmonic interest and a pleasing sound when resolved. Very brief disscussion of big topic!
Stylistically playing lines in a fashion appropriate to a genre will be appreciated by your band mates. Knowing that 16 notes may not work with Stormy Monday or walking a swing line over Whole lotta Love would probably be frowned on by traditional rhythm sections. You have listened to a lot of bass players, you have though about what makes a given style have a certain feel, make sure you employ that knowledge when creating a bass line.

Record yourself. You will learn a ton! Rethink the teacher thing.

[Fender32]

Firstly, thanks a million, this is exactly the kind if reply I was hoping for. I understood everything completely, except for the following:

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Adding linear motion or scaler line construction allows you additional vocabulary of approaches.

Also, I wasn't clear on just how you "resolve" these stray notes. Is it just trial and error?

The tension added by non chord tones adds harmonic interest and a pleasing sound when resolved.

Finally, as regards the teacher thing, well the realisation that it's not an option for me at this moment in time is what drove me to go down this route of thread-posting. However, as soon as my circumstances change (which they are bound to), I'll take that option very seriously.

Thanks again and any clarification of the above would be highly welcome.

[Dbassmon]

Notes which are not contained in a chord provide musical tension. They have weight and want to move to a nearby tone which is contained in the chord. This provides musical resolution and a pleasing outcome to the brain. For example if you are playing a C7 chord. The chord is C, E, G, Bb. if you play an Eb or (minor third) and resolve to the E natural, it sounds right, if you play a Gb and resolve it to G natural it sounds right because these are chord tones. Experiment, there is more to this as whether tones are played on strong beats has much to do with the resolution sounding satisfying. Once again, big subject for a post. This is an entire study. It's important that you know of the existance of such a concept and seek out educational materials that will hip you to this stuff. John Patitucci addresses some of this stuff in John Patituccis Electric Bass published by Warner Brothers, as do many other books.

Scaler motion is simply using the scale for a particular chord to create a bass line. The C7 chord in the previous example has other tones in the C dominant scale that can be used in bass line creation. See Chord studies for the Electric Bass by Richard Appleman, Berklee press

[steveb98]

I would say you're thinking to much about it and not letting things flow. Sure you need to study more, but in the mean time anyone who has be copping bass lines for twenty years has a wealth of info to draw from. I would bet the originals remind you of something you have hear before, well there's your starting point.

What was it Herbie Hancock said once about developing your own sound... You copy everyone you can for years, then forget about it and play.

I would say get something to record rehearsal with. Then in rehearsal do simple lines to get through practice. Then at home play the recording and start SINGING bass lines you think will work. By singing you're not locked into just finger patterns you know. Come up with a line you like then pick up the bass and figure it out. Then you got something to start working with and let evolve.

Remember triple-scale studio musicians are ones people expect great bass lines out of first time. And after being an recording engineer I know they don't always have a great line at first. Players come up with a germ of an idea and build on it. As I said I think you are putting too much pressure on yourself. Relax, enjoy, and the lines will come to you.

[Fender32]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Notes which are not contained in a chord provide musical tension.

Great! I have a knack for finding those!

Seriously though, I think I see what you were getting at now ... you were talking about "passing through" notes not in the scale you're playing in, to get to a resolution on a note that is in the scale, or possibly just letting the line "hang" on one of these "rogue" notes for dramatic affect?

I must admit, I'd not thought of a John Patitucci as an author of bass tuition pitched at "my level" of playing (having listened to his "Heart of the Bass" album), but I'll certainly look into that too. Thanks again!

[Dbassmon]

Exactly, in fact, they are called "passing tones"

[Fender32]

Originally Posted by steveb98

... anyone who has be copping bass lines for twenty years has a wealth of info to draw from.

Actually Steve, you've just hit a very big nail, very squarely on the head there! It's precisely because I've spent most of my life sucking in all kinds of music from different genres, that I now find myself "musically constipated". The one conclusion I came to was that "nothing's really wrong in music". Mind you, that sounds better on paper than it does through my bass amp!

Top tip about recording the rehearsals too, thanks. We've (the band) talked about that a lot, but not done enough about it yet - "Cheap Tape Recorders-R-Us", here I come!

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Fender32]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Exactly, in fact, they are called "passing tones"

spooky!

[FaithNoMan]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Exactly, in fact, they are called "passing tones"

I got those down allright...

I love dissonance - it's the "Finish passing, and get back in your lane before the dump truck turns you into a pancake" part that I tend to spend a little more time on, but those are when I come up with the coolest things, and it feels so good to fall back in line gracefully!

Fender32, I think you are just going to have work through this...all I can say is learn your drummer, and don't be afraid to make BAD sounds - they will help you just as much as the good ones!

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Fender32

b.) finding the right accent notes to play over faster moving chord progressions, rather than always picking the route note on the first beat and then trying to find something to go after it (classic beginners mistake, I imagine)

A book that i'm using at the moment, advices using consonant tones on the downbeats, and progressively less consonant (dissonant) tones on the weaker beats.