Can you teach songwriting / composition?

[Kurisu]

This is a question for the experienced jazz heads on the board, and others who have experience in songwriting / composing. I hope you can help, it's driving me around the bend.

I'd like to learn how to write songs. By songs I mean the melody, the hook, the chord progression, things of that nature. In terms of what I aspire to, I'm looking at pop & rock in the style of Beatles, Who, Zeppelin, and so forth.

Now, I know John and Paul didn't have formal training, but I'm not sure it would wise to to point at a genius and say, "look, they didn't study, so I don't need to." I'm not as melodically gifted as they are (who is?), but I'm working on transcribing and singing everything I play (from advice from Foghorn and everyone else).

So, my question is: should I take formal theory lessons? I could go to a private teacher for that (there's a jazz pianist in town who's offered to teach me), but I could also take the Theory 1 undergrad course at my university. I could take it for free, because I'm a grad (this is definitely a bonus over the private teacher, because I have a family to support and money's obviously tight -- and I know that a private teacher would be better, but is it that much better?) . But here's the problem... is a classical theory class really what I'm looking for? For my goals of learning to write pop/rock, what should I focus on?

It seems to me that Paul and John screwed around on the guitar and piano and sang until they came up with a hook, then worked on it till a song came out. They didn't approach it from theory. Would my time be spend better just transcribing every single Beatles song and then eventually I'll learn how to sing a melody, create a hook, and build a progression?

See, I'm so confused as to what approach to take to compose songs. I'll post the syllabus for the Theory 1 course in the next message, just to give you guys an idea of what that holds.

Thanks so much! (It's tough not to know what to focus on, you know? Never knowing if you're wasting what precious little free time you have.)

[Kurisu]

The Music Theory 1 course topics
(From these books:
Bruce Benward, Music in Theory and Practice (Vol. I, Text and workbook, 7 ed.)
Bruce Benward, Introduction to Sight Singing and Ear Training)

- Course Introduction, Notation, Tonal
- Intervals, Transposition
- Chords, Scale degrees, Figured Bass
- Cadences and non-harmonic tones
- Melodic organization
- Melodic organization/ texture
- Voice leading in Two voices
- Voice leading in Four voices
- Voice leading/ harmonic progression
- Harmonic Progression

The tests (which tells us a bit about what they may interested in):
Keyboard testing #1: major scales
Dictation Quiz(Friday)
Keyboard testing #2: minor scales (harmonic and melodic)
Dictation Quiz (Friday)
Keyboard testing # 3: M, m ,d, A Chords
Dictation TEST #1
Sight TEST #1

WRITTEN MIDTERM
Dictation Quiz (Friday)
Keyboard testing# 4: I V I , i V i (C, G, F, a, e, d)
Dictation Quiz (Friday)
Keyboard testing# 5: I ii6V I (C, G, F) i, iio6, V, i, (a, e, d)
Concert Report Due ( Monday)
Dictation TEST #2
Sight TEST #2


What do you think? Useful? Useful but a teacher would still be better? Even considering this is basically free, except for time... which is important, at this stage in life.

[tzadik]

Yes, comp lessons were the most valuable part of music school for me.

...but you HAVE to immerse yourself into it. Spend the time. Live it. Compose Every day, or close to it. Try stuff. Make sure your instructor is some one you trust to push you just enough.

[steveb98]

When I was in music school there were a lot of young Rocker's who in general think learning theory will ruin them. Well Composition was a required class. It was great the teacher was teaching pretty traditional composition, but used Beatles tunes for 90% of his examples. The Beatles tunes fit traditional comp' theory. I enjoyed it and the Rockers couldn't say it wouldn't relate to their "thing".

Learning composition shows you the things the Beatles and other songwriter's ear eventually teaches them. Taking a class saving having to write a lot of tunes and discover the rules on your own. It also give you the terminology so you can communicate with other musicians.

[Kurisu]

But in this case it's not a comp class, it's a theory class. Are they the same? (I honestly don't know. )

And more importantly, would the time be better spent with a private teacher, even considering the theory class is free?

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by Kurisu

But in this case it's not a comp class, it's a theory class. Are they the same? (I honestly don't know. )

And more importantly, would the time be better spent with a private teacher, even considering the theory class is free?

You need to know basic theory to study composition, but even when learning theory you are writing some music so you try and hear the concepts. Most classes are Harmony and Theory so once past the basic theory of scale and chord construction, the harmony will be deal with things you can use to write songs with. Plus at that point you should know enough theory to start analyzing songs you like and use that info to start writing your own songs.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by steveb98

Learning composition shows you the things the Beatles and other songwriter's ear eventually teaches them. Taking a class saving having to write a lot of tunes and discover the rules on your own. It also give you the terminology so you can communicate with other musicians.

+1 This is it. The best thing that a class will do is to save you time.

Good luck. Give your efforts total energy for at least a year.... maybe more and you'll see then what you can do. Most songwritters will tell you that the first 100 songs aren't worth anything... you have to keep working. Stevie Wonder said once he wrote about 300 songs a year. Most composers of any style tell you the most important thing to learn is when to use the wastebasket.

Keep working.

[RiddimKing]

One thing I'd really recommend is working on your songwriting in a band setting. A lot of pop/rock music is riff oriented (often based on a bass line), and an entire song can flow from people jamming on somebody's (quite often small) initial idea. You may come up with a nice progression, or an introductory riff, or a bassline; your guitarist/keys player takes that, tacks on something he's been working on and you pretty quickly have the basis for a song. You might take home a recording of a part, say a guitar or bass part of a verse or chorus, and start playing it over and over. Then, try singing a melody line to it. When you find something you like...immediately learn it on your instrument and record it (before you forget). Bring that in to the next practice and see what develops. One link I found has some pretty good advice for practical ways to get started. I like the idea of using someone else's chord progression as an initial skeleton to build your song on. Here's the link (I have no connection with this person and I haven't taken her course): http://www.robinfrederick.com/write.html