Carol Kaye - Chordal Notes

[Fishbrain]

I've just come across this vid BASS PLAYER: Carol Kaye Interview - YouTube

It seems like just what I'm after at the minute because I'm trying to get my jazz lines to sound less like scales and more like tasty fluid licks!

I'm not quite following her on the vid tho, is she basically saying to practice arpeggios up and down the neck rather than scales?

[Pacman]

Moved to General Instruction

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Fishbrain

I've just come across this vid BASS PLAYER: Carol Kaye Interview - YouTube

It seems like just what I'm after at the minute because I'm trying to get my jazz lines to sound less like scales and more like tasty fluid licks!

I'm not quite following her on the vid tho, is she basically saying to practice arpeggios up and down the neck rather than scales?

Yes. Cordal notes - The 1, 3, 5 & 7 no need going to the 9, 11 or 13 leave them for the melody guys. Of course that's MHO.

Basic Chords
Major Triad = R-3-5
Minor Triad = R-b3-5
Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5

7th Chords
Maj7 = R-3-5-7
Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7

Carol was taking the basic R-3-5-b7 pattern (the dominant seven pattern) to three chords. Or R-b3-5-b7 for all minor chords in a progression. Same generic chordal pattern moved around your fretboard .

That's what I got from it. You've got your scales in muscle memory now put some generic chord patterns in muscle memory. See (hear) a chord coming up use the same generic pattern over the new chord - just move the root of the pattern to the new chord's root on your fretboard.

Basic concept - our job is to nail the chord change and gather our bass line from the chordal notes, aka chord tones.

Some time spent with Carol is time well spent.

[simonwong]

Yes, I think that's what she meant.

[Fishbrain]

Cool, I'll give it a go!

[bassandbeyond]

I studied with Carol for a while, and there's more to it than just 1-3-5-7 diatonic arpeggios. To get the bebop sound she's talking about, you need to become fluent with chord substitutions, chromatic approaches, and diminished and whole tone patterns.

For example, when playing over a Dmin7 chord, try arpeggiating an FMaj7 chord. That will give you the "jazzier" sound of Dmin9.

It comes down to learning a bunch of stock bebop "licks" that incorporate these concepts, and getting them ingrained in your playing so you can execute them in any key on the fly. The best introduction to this approach that I've seen is Carol's book "Jazz Improv for Bass" and accompanying "Pro's Jazz Phrases", both available on Carol's website. Recommended!

[Intenzity]

Since you brought up chord tones...

For my money, while scales are valuable and of course necessary, lines sound stronger based on chord tones, and arpeggios that just running scales.

I have put together some books that cover all the ways you can play the orders of the notes for major 7 chords and dominant chords. Minor is coming soon.

There is a chart in the preview that shows the 24 different ways you can play the notes of any chord with 4 notes, and the books go through all 24 patterns for each key. If you want to get the sound and the fingerings of chord tones together, this could help.

Also highly recommend any Kaye books, for just the rhythmic patterns alone, and of course all the other good stuff in there.

The Book of Chord Tones - Book 2 - Dominant Chords by Basso Ridiculoso in Arts & Photography

[GreggBummer]

I love that video. I've seen it posted here on TB many times.


The thing I like about Carol Kaye is how confident she is playing the basics. She keeps it simple and sounds great. Excellent musicianship.

[Fishbrain]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

For example, when playing over a Dmin7 chord, try arpeggiating an FMaj7 chord. That will give you the "jazzier" sound of Dmin9.

It comes down to learning a bunch of stock bebop "licks" that incorporate these concepts, and getting them ingrained in your playing so you can execute them in any key on the fly. The best introduction to this approach that I've seen is Carol's book "Jazz Improv for Bass" and accompanying "Pro's Jazz Phrases", both available on Carol's website. Recommended!

Thanks man I'll give that book a try. On the theory side...

How did you get Fmaj7 to go over Dm7? And if Dm7 is - D F A C and Fmaj7 is F A C E does that mean basically adding an E to a Dm7?



edit: ordered pros jazz phrases, will let you know how i get on!

[BassChuck]

Or think of it as taking the 3rd of the Dm7 and building a major 7th chord off that note. Sometimes going the other way can bring interesting results, like putting a major 3rd under the chord... so it becomes a Dm7/Bb or Bb9 if you want to think of it that way.

Knowing theory is really important, but musical context and ear are always the guide.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Fishbrain

Thanks man I'll give that book a try. On the theory side...

How did you get Fmaj7 to go over Dm7? And if Dm7 is - D F A C and Fmaj7 is F A C E does that mean basically adding an E to a Dm7?



edit: ordered pros jazz phrases, will let you know how i get on!

It's extensions beyond the basic chord. Most harmony is about stacking thirds. Dmin is D F A, all thirds. Add another third on top and you get D F A C or Dmin7. But look closely - it's an F triad over D. Add another third and you have D F A C E or Dmin9, but it's also an Amin triad merged with Dmin. And, its FMaj7 (F A C E) merged with Dmin ( D F A).

John

[Fishbrain]

It's starting to make sense, I think I need to put some time putting it into practice on my bass so get it to sink in. I'll prob be back in a few days with more confusion haha

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by JTE

Most harmony is about stacking thirds.

Interesting way to look at it...

[JTE]

Originally Posted by GreggBummer

Interesting way to look at it...

But that's what it is. When Carol talks about the "chordal scale", she's simply talking about the harmonized major scale. Understanding how this works is the key to why chords work together. That whole "ii V I" thing is based on it.

Take a major scale and write it out- really, write it out on paper for yourself, I'll wait....







C D E F G A B C

then do it again starting on the third, right on top of what you started with the third (E).
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Repeat, again moving a third to G...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those stacks are the triads that are diatonic to the key of C. So instead of memorizing that I, IV, and V are major, that ii, iii, and vi, are minor, and vii is diminished, you know exactly WHY they are, and that helps you understand instead of just memorizing and regurgitating.

Carry it out one more level for the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Analyze those stacks of notes to see the third relationships, and how they build the IMa7, iimin7, iiimin7, IVMa7, V7, vimin7, and viimin7b5. But also look to see how a major seventh is a major third (C to E) with a minor third stacked on (E to G), and another major third (G to B). And compare that with the major third on top to the dominant 7 which is major (C to E), then a minor (E to G) and another minor (G to Bb).

That's what most chords you'll run into in most popular musics are (as I conveniently ignore a whole spectrum of quartal harmony which isn't nearly as common as triad harmony).

John

[longfinger]

Pretty much all tonal music from the Baroque till now is Tertian Harmony. Harmony of thirds. AFAIK, Quartal, or Quintal harmony are rarely used as a full complete systems in their own right, but mostly as 'add ons' to tertian harmony.

Learn our thirds! Stack them to the 13th.

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by JTE

But that's what it is. When Carol talks about the "chordal scale", she's simply talking about the harmonized major scale. Understanding how this works is the key to why chords work together. That whole "ii V I" thing is based on it.

Take a major scale and write it out- really, write it out on paper for yourself, I'll wait....







C D E F G A B C

then do it again starting on the third, right on top of what you started with the third (E).
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Repeat, again moving a third to G...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those stacks are the triads that are diatonic to the key of C. So instead of memorizing that I, IV, and V are major, that ii, iii, and vi, are minor, and vii is diminished, you know exactly WHY they are, and that helps you understand instead of just memorizing and regurgitating.

Carry it out one more level for the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Analyze those stacks of notes to see the third relationships, and how they build the IMa7, iimin7, iiimin7, IVMa7, V7, vimin7, and viimin7b5. But also look to see how a major seventh is a major third (C to E) with a minor third stacked on (E to G), and another major third (G to B). And compare that with the major third on top to the dominant 7 which is major (C to E), then a minor (E to G) and another minor (G to Bb).

That's what most chords you'll run into in most popular musics are (as I conveniently ignore a whole spectrum of quartal harmony which isn't nearly as common as triad harmony).

John

NO BS: This is good stuff. Thanks for posting it.

[JTE]

Plus, if you learn chords this way, you'll more clearly see the Charlie Parker/Dizzy Gillespie thing of playing off extensions of the chord. Exactly what we were talking about with an FMaj7 over Dmin7.

DFA is D minor; FAC is F Major; ACE is A minor; Think Amin over Dmin and you've got DFACE or Dmin9 and you can solo off the A minor. Understand that the FMaj7 is F with an Amin on top, and again it's all thirds being stacked up on top of the main triad.

That's why the bass' function for foundational playing (i.e. not soloing) is to define the basic harmony. That frees the chordal instruments (e.g. piano, guitar, organ, banjo) and/or soloists to play upper extensions without getting muddy. If we're taking care of letting everyone know it's a G7 chord, the guitar doesn't have to play the root or fifth if they don't want to. Those cool sounding sliding things Hendrix did that came from Curtis Mayfield and Cornell Dupree are that kind of thing- imply the 7th chord by only playing the notes that give it the tension. So if the guitar plays B and F all by themselves it's weird and kind of dissonant, but with the bass nailing the G and D, we all know it's a G7. And the guitar can slide those two notes up to D and G to resolve that tension- anyway. lots of cool stuff happens when you start to understand the concept of chord within chords.

John

[Fishbrain]

Originally Posted by JTE

That's why the bass' function for foundational playing (i.e. not soloing) is to define the basic harmony. That frees the chordal instruments (e.g. piano, guitar, organ, banjo) and/or soloists to play upper extensions without getting muddy. If we're taking care of letting everyone know it's a G7 chord, the guitar doesn't have to play the root or fifth if they don't want to. Those cool sounding sliding things Hendrix did that came from Curtis Mayfield and Cornell Dupree are that kind of thing- imply the 7th chord by only playing the notes that give it the tension. So if the guitar plays B and F all by themselves it's weird and kind of dissonant, but with the bass nailing the G and D, we all know it's a G7. And the guitar can slide those two notes up to D and G to resolve that tension- anyway. lots of cool stuff happens when you start to understand the concept of chord within chords.

John

So in the main we should stick to the main triad if were doing a walking line say but open up into the extensions for soloing?

[Marty Forrer]

Yes.

[Arthur Strand]

With over 5000 chord shapes on standard tuned 6 string guitar, also, not forgetting chord sequences that can consist of any relevant chord to the given key and the arrangement of the music which can include riffs perhaps in harmony or octaves apart from other instrument(s) - happy hunting everybody. Then you can improvise some solos and innovations!