Carol Kaye dilemma

ZenderBender · #1 02-14-2008, 06:34 PM

I'm having a bit of a dillemma because I've heard great things about her instructional materials, but am offended by her swipes at Jamerson's legacy. I have no intention of reigniting the debate over this, but I could get some solid advice, I'd appreciate it. I'm willing to overlook the debate and order some material from her, but my position the Jamerson controversy makes me a tad uneasy.

cowsgomoo · #2 02-14-2008, 07:13 PM

you're not impressed by her personality or the claims she's made about tracks she says she's played on... and because of this you're having doubts about her teaching materials?

you dont have to LIKE someone to learn from them... if someone can teach me something, I'll take it regardless of whether I believe they played 'I Was Made To Love Her' or not

ZenderBender · #3 02-14-2008, 07:27 PM

nope. I have no doubts about the quality of the materials, I just have doubts about whether I'd want to give my money to someone who has made these kinds of claims.

Busker · #4 02-14-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenderBender

nope. I have no doubts about the quality of the materials, I just have doubts about whether I'd want to give my money to someone who has made these kinds of claims.

What if her claims are true though? I mean, I don't know if they are true or not because I just don't know much about her history, but she might have played on some of those hits she claims.

ZenderBender · #5 02-14-2008, 07:35 PM

Okay. let's just drop the stuff about the claims. I sure as hell don't want to start that whole thing up again.

Beyond that, have anybody used her materials? Any recommendations?

SmittyG · #6 02-14-2008, 07:48 PM

I've used her materials for years and have learned a lot from them. I still pull out some of the books from time to time to brush up on things. She is a wonderful teacher and very giving of her time. However, just so you get it all up front, she is VERY set in her ways about how bass should be played and how it should sound and a whole lot of other things. I find I disagree with her on a lot of these issues. But, as I've said, none of this has ever cause a problem to my learning from her. I am a big fan of both her work and of Jamerson's--I just stay out of the whole debate over who played on what song.

Marcury · #7 02-14-2008, 09:06 PM

Her materials are worthwhile, beyond that...

mutedeity · #8 02-14-2008, 09:17 PM

Face it, people have different points of veiw on things and different opinions. I am sure beyond a doubt that I have many different views to my students on many topics, musical and otherwise. Does that mean that I am going to teach them badly or that I don't deserve thier respect for the things I teach them? I personally don't try to push my views onto anyone it teach, but if I want to express my opinion away from my teaching I think I should feel free to do so.

I will admit that I have never really gone into depth about Carole Kaye as either a teacher or a player other than a few things I have read here and there, but I would say that given her credentials and experience she is probably entitled to her opinion in an empirical sense. Whether she is right or wrong is not the issue, it's just her point of view. I think that if she has something of value to teach then that in itself is worth your money. You don't have to agree with her, you just have to be able to accept that despite having a different opinion to you, she is still a worthwile source of information and learning.

ZenderBender · #9 02-14-2008, 09:21 PM

I agree.

So I was thinking of getting the DVD bass course and the "How to play the electric bass" book. Should I get the CD as well?

Basshole · #10 02-14-2008, 09:22 PM

Try to buy her materials used. That way, you can learn from her, and not put any (more) money in her pocket.

;-)

Just a thought, in case the whole "not wanting to financially reward a liar" thing is really that much of an issue for you.

davec · #11 02-14-2008, 09:25 PM

I also have had a bias about her, mainly due to magazine articles. A good friend of mine is a good friend of hers. I still question her claims, but if you consider motown at the time. No one knew who they were calling in and it was common to have multiple bassist to record the same track and go with the best or even the best parts recorded. Also think about the whole boys club thing and the fact that none of the players really got the credit they deserved. If I feed my family by doing studio work and my future gigs were based of of my prior resume, I would take credit for everything I was associated with, even if they only used one note that I played.

Her teaching methods are solid, her place in music history is amazing

her theories in intonation and setup.... well

Remember your seeking her as a teacher not a soulmate.

ZenderBender · #12 02-14-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basshole

Try to buy her materials used. That way, you can learn from her, and not put any (more) money in her pocket.

;-)

Just a thought, in case the whole "not wanting to financially reward a liar" thing is really that much of an issue for you.

I looked around a bit, and I found one used copy of the bass DVD on amazon, but nothing else. And it cost about the same as just ordering it direct. So no real savings there. And at least new you can guarantee that its in great condition.

Do you know a good place to order used method books?

ZenderBender · #13 02-14-2008, 09:35 PM

Basshole, I checked out our myspace page. Are you related to Joao Gilberto?

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I HAD to ask...

Captain Scarlet · #14 02-14-2008, 09:45 PM

I'm counting down the minutes before this thread gets closed...

But seriously, I am the biggest Jamerson fan (siding with the Jamerson camp in the controversy) but I still bought Carole's teaching materials. Her books have a lot of solid information, even if some of the material seems dated. I think the books are worthwhile and they're not expensive. I would recommend picking them up. I think she's mistaken about certain things, but her books have a lot to offer bassists of all levels.

mutedeity · #15 02-14-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Scarlet

I'm counting down the minutes before this thread gets closed...

But seriously, I am the biggest Jamerson fan (siding with the Jamerson camp in the controversy) but I still bought Carole's teaching materials. Her books have a lot of solid information, even if some of the material seems dated. I think the books are worthwhile and they're not expensive. I would recommend picking them up. I think she's mistaken about certain things, but her books have a lot to offer bassists of all levels.

Why would it be closed?

Basshole · #16 02-14-2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenderBender

Basshole, I checked out our myspace page. Are you related to Joao Gilberto?

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I HAD to ask...

Yes, he's my dad.

Drucocu · #17 02-14-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basshole

Yes, he's my dad.

whoaaa!! you're Mr. Bossa Nova Jr. himself????!!! what an honour!

**T. B. Player** · #18 02-14-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davec

I also have had a bias about her, mainly due to magazine articles. A good friend of mine is a good friend of hers. I still question her claims, but if you consider motown at the time. No one knew who they were calling in and it was common to have multiple bassist to record the same track and go with the best or even the best parts recorded. Also think about the whole boys club thing and the fact that none of the players really got the credit they deserved. If I feed my family by doing studio work and my future gigs were based of of my prior resume, I would take credit for everything I was associated with, even if they only used one note that I played.

Her teaching methods are solid, her place in music history is amazing

her theories in intonation and setup.... well

Remember your seeking her as a teacher not a soulmate.

You know, if you really want a lesson (rather than a Kaye v. Jamerson battle, you could contact http://www.boulevardmusic.com/ in Culver City, CA where Valda Hammick teaches. I had a Carole Kaye instruction book when I first started playing, and it was way too simple. After hearing some of Jamerson's lines, they grooved, but they were simple as well. Valda's stuff, IMHO, was dynamite as the next step. At 16 years old, it was the first material I couldn't sight read! For guitar players, think Mel Bay vs. Berklee methods, but jump from Mel Bay 2 to Berklee 3.

As for the studio work, unless you're a bassist in a band, the same thing happens today. My last recording session as a backing musician for a solo artist saw me record 4 tracks - but I only ended up playing on two of them that made the record.

As long as I had a part in it, I can say I was on it.

Z

GreyBeard · #19 02-14-2008, 10:17 PM

Learn from her what you can. Her issues with Jamerson, who really know what happened. That's really not related to what you're wanting to learn

**T. B. Player** · #20 02-14-2008, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basshole

Yes, he's my dad.

And you have to be related to Bebel. Is it her music that's been on Siruis' Jazz Cafe lately?

Z