changing the chord with the power of your bass

cactus waltz · #1 08-26-2010, 02:07 AM

Hello,

A couple of days ago I read on this forum different reasons why the bass is great. I can't find the thread right now, but one of the reasons mentioned went along the lines that if the guitarists plas a C chord, the bassists can add an A and make it A minor instead.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works. I assume that the C chord acts as a single C note and that A+C makes up for two thirds of the A minor triad. But why is that the chord is changed and not that the C is simply harmonized, like turn into a C13?

And what happens to the scale? An A minor exists naturally in the C major scale so that's fine, but shouldn't there be conflicts in the progression for using a vi chord instead of a I?

somegeezer · #2 08-26-2010, 02:22 AM

Because the A C E G notes create an A minor 7. Rather than just the C E G which create the C major.

Schlyder · #3 08-26-2010, 02:22 AM

It's because our human brain likes to hear the root of the chord in the bass. We have been conditioned to hear it that way.

cactus waltz · #4 08-26-2010, 03:59 AM

I still find it difficult to grasp. I can see the reasoning behind A as a root for A minor 7. But couldn't I just as well be playing a melody in C major scale that happens to start on A?

timbledum · #5 08-26-2010, 04:05 AM

Well play it. See how it sounds. Does it sound like a c13? No, because the bass is below not above the chord. For example, a D/F# is just a D chord over the third of that chord, F#, but playing that note (F#) as the bass note changes the whole feel of that chord, even though the notes in it are exactly the same, *just because the bass is playing that note low*. (or keyboardists left hand or guitarists E string)

JtheJazzMan · #6 08-26-2010, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

I still find it difficult to grasp. I can see the reasoning behind A as a root for A minor 7. But couldn't I just as well be playing a melody in C major scale that happens to start on A?

You need to reduce the example to an instantaneous time frame.

Remember the harmony is fluid throughout the music even if the sheet music tells you to play an A minor chord.

If your guitar is playing C E G, you could play:

C to keep it a C triad
A to make it Amin7
Bb to make it C/Bb
Ab to make it Ab maj7 #5

yada yada - remember it makes those chords in the exact instant when all those notes are in synch.

neurotictim · #7 08-26-2010, 04:22 AM

You know, I never even thought about this. Next time I go to practice, and we play "Gravity", I'm totally gonna screw with my guitarist.

cactus waltz · #8 08-26-2010, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

You need to reduce the example to an instantaneous time frame.

Remember the harmony is fluid throughout the music even if the sheet music tells you to play an A minor chord.

If your guitar is playing C E G, you could play:

C to keep it a C triad
A to make it Amin7
Bb to make it C/Bb
Ab to make it Ab maj7 #5

yada yada - remember it makes those chords in the exact instant when all those notes are in synch.

Hm. If the guitarist would hit a C major and I simultaneously hit an A and we held that chord for a full bar, it would definitely ring out as an Amin7. But if only the guitarist held out on the chord and I played a melody of eight notes in the C major scale beginning with an A note, it would stay in C, right? At least that's what it sounds like to my ears. Is this what you mean with fluid harmony?

MalcolmAmos · #9 08-26-2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactus waltz

Hello,

A couple of days ago I read on this forum different reasons why the bass is great. I can't find the thread right now, but one of the reasons mentioned went along the lines that if the guitarists plas a C chord, the bassists can add an A and make it A minor instead.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how this works.

I think that's a stretch. Yes C and Am have the same notes and the same chords, we tell which we are playing in by what chords make the tonal center of our efforts. Using the major chords of C-F-G we sound major, using the minor chords of Am-Dm-Em we sound minor - just adding one Am chord is not going to change that. Why?

The ice cream progression of-- I, vi, IV, V, I -- does that all the time and it still has a major sound.

One minor chord will not change the tonal center of the song. Add a little color yes, change the tonal center, no.

My question is ---- why would the bassist knowingly do that? One of the old rule is to follow the chord, if the chord goes out, follow it out, and yes follow the chord when it comes back in. If everyone follows the chord good things happen. Why would the bassist knowingly be the only one going minor?

Of course IMHO.

JtheJazzMan · #10 08-26-2010, 05:35 AM

Yes, although the chord for the bar is generally C major, as you look at smaller time frames youd be playing Amin, C/B, then C major.

It may seem pedantic, but have a look at harmonised horn sections in big bands. Although the rhythm section is given a standard set of changes to walk over, the horns themselves are often playing very complex chords going by at quaver speeds. Thats one example of where this level of detail becomes a bigger concern.

Its a principle that can be used anywhere in any style though.

thomashawk · #11 08-29-2010, 09:51 PM

I think that the chord COULD be any of these: A/C maj or A min, or C13 (among some others) in "theory land." What the chord actually IS depends on its function in the chord progression, i.e. is it adding tension or resolution to the song structure. It's all in how it sounds, and not how it looks.

-Tommy

Rudreax · #12 08-29-2010, 10:17 PM

It changes because we name chords based of the bass note (remember that the bass is NOT the same as the root, which is what the chord is based off of). When you play bass, you usually play the bass notes of chords, which are also usually the root as well (playing low A while an A chord is being played, for example; A is both the bass note and the root note). However, if you were to play a C#, the chord becomes a A/C# chord, or basically a first inversion chord, since the bass is different but the root and chord structure (A C# E) is the same.

Now take C major, C E G. Add A below that and you get an Amin7 chord, A C E G. Does that make sense. Of course, as has been said it all really depends on context, and thes things are usually done to add color to the piece.

And no, playing an A minor melody over a C major chord does not make the tune minor. That depends on the underlying harmony.

Rudreax · #13 08-29-2010, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I think that's a stretch. Yes C and Am have the same notes and the same chords, we tell which we are playing in by what chords make the tonal center of our efforts. Using the major chords of C-F-G we sound major, using the minor chords of Am-Dm-Em we sound minor - just adding one Am chord is not going to change that. Why?

The ice cream progression of-- I, vi, IV, V, I -- does that all the time and it still has a major sound.

One minor chord will not change the tonal center of the song. Add a little color yes, change the tonal center, no.

My question is ---- why would the bassist knowingly do that? One of the old rule is to follow the chord, if the chord goes out, follow it out, and yes follow the chord when it comes back in. If everyone follows the chord good things happen. Why would the bassist knowingly be the only one going minor?

Of course IMHO.

It adds color and just basically changed the structure. You can do a lot with a simple tune if you know how to control its harmony.

esoomssab · #14 08-29-2010, 11:22 PM

Another thing to think about is the voicing - A guitarist hitting his C chord (x32010) is playing 2 Cs, 2Es, and a G - if you voiced an Am7 chord with that much emphasis on the 3rd and the 5th, it's not going to sound too very much like an Am7. The notes will be there, but it'll feel wrong.

JimK · #15 08-30-2010, 04:59 AM

Voicing is key.
...I used to mplay with a guy that knew mucho 4-string (no low E or low A) voicings...example: Am7 would be a Barre at the 5th fret (low-to-high = G-C-E-A).
Playing a Low A on the bass...Am7
Playing a Low F on the bass? Something else.

Steve Khan does a lot of voicings like this...and Anthony Jackson does a lot with those ambiguous voicings. Check out some of their Eyewitness band recordings.

If the guitarist likes playing everything full-on w/ a lot of the low E-string in his chords...you're kinda stuck. Same, too, for the pianist that likes to bang out the bass/root note with their left hand.

JTE · #16 08-30-2010, 11:58 AM

Hmm, the post to which Cactus Waltz refers may have been one of mine, as that's something I believe about the power of bass. First, as has been pointed out, it's about understanding harmony. To Cactus Waltz... Do you see that a C major is the notes C, E, and G? And that an Amin7 is A, C, E, and G? So, an Amin7 is (generally speaking) a C major with an A in the bass. Yes, sometimes it's more helpful to think of that as a C/A instead of Amin7, but it is all about context.

Now if I'm playing "Louie Louie" in C, I wouldn't be wanting to change that C to Amin7 at all. But there's lots of ballad type things where the guitar may be staying on C, but it sound better to make it an Amin7 on the way to the F (and also make the F into a Dmin7). Depends on the melody and context of course, but the power to make those things happen lies in the bass.

One of the two main parts of our job is to DEFINE the harmony. That means we have to OWN the harmony. It really helps if the guitarists and keyboard players really understand this stuff too (the Steve Kahn/Anthony Jackson example BTW is an excellent point of reference, dig into Motown stuff and see how many time the bass is playing this kind of stuff under simple triads on the guitars too), but bass players gotta have it down. See, a guitar player in a pop/rock/country kind of band can easily get away with knowing chords by shape. But the bass player needs to (at some fundamental level) understand that the C chord is C E G, that it's functioning as the tonic chord, that it's going to go to the F, that the F is F A C, that this is the IV chord, etc. Guitars can get away with just strumming the right shape without ever really knowing why.

Why would I do that kind of substitution? Because it SOUNDS better. Chord substitution is a common practice, and the most common one is to sub the relative minor for a major chord. Again, depends on the context, but to the point, it's the power of the bass to define what's going on.

And several bassists agree- Sting has repeated something similar- his function as lead singer (carrying the melody) and the bassist (carrying the bottom) defines the parameters the guitar can be in, and alter the how the guitar chord is interpreted by the listener.

John

mambo4 · #17 08-30-2010, 02:16 PM

I my experience, throwing a different root note under a chord to change the harmony works like this:
everybody else looks annoyed at me and tells me to stick to the correct root.

at least 95% of the time, thats what happens

As JTE says, one of the main parts of our job is to define the harmony. This means not changing the root note just cuz we can.
If you are going to alter the harmony this way, It is definitely worth considering if it really helps the song and the other parts going on.

kr0n · #18 01-29-2011, 06:47 AM

This thread spoke to me a bit. It's always nice to think a situation differently and understand all sides pointing to a general space.

Sticking to root to emphasize, adding tension with well lets say oddly placed harmony change to REMIND where we are.

tjh · #19 01-29-2011, 11:52 AM

very informative thread ... good quesitons and very good insight and responses explained well ... thank you all

HolmeBass · #20 01-29-2011, 12:06 PM

I find that if you're going to try this out, make sure the *piano player* is on board and not pounding out a different root that you down low!

One of the first tunes I learned that used this, putting a low E under a G major triad in the guitar to make Emin7, is "Back On The Chain Gang" by the Pretenders.