Is this chart right?

WookieeForLife · #1 02-22-2009, 07:00 AM

I made this chart to help when we are making songs. Im asking if you guys like it and think its right. The only problem i had was my computer didnt have the flat sign so i only used sharps.

BluesWalker · #2 02-22-2009, 07:09 AM

Use a lower case b to indicate flats then talk to us.

Febs · #3 02-22-2009, 07:20 AM

This is a good exercise to do, but as the previous poster mentioned, you can use the lower case b to indicate flats. Do not use enharmonic equivalents when you are building a scale. An F minor scale, for example, has an Ab, not a G#.

You're also missing some keys/scales. Where is Eb? Ab?

Consider ordering this chart using the circle of fifths: C, G, D, A, E, etc. Also consider putting the major scale together with its relative minor. For example, instead of listing A Major and A minor together, list C Major and A minor together. This will make it easier to spot mistakes like the one in the last scale in your chart: G minor is the relative of Bb Major, and so it has two flats.

(By the way, what you will end up with if you follow these suggestions is essentially the same chart that is in the Wikipedia article in the link above. I would encourage you to work through it yourself rather than just using the Wikipedia chart.)

**Pacman** · #4 02-22-2009, 02:15 PM

No. C F and G are wrong.

Edit: and D

Jake of Bass · #5 02-22-2009, 02:26 PM

C minor and D minor have flats, not sharps.

F major and minor both have flats, not sharps.

The intervals for C minor and G minor are wrong - where are your minor 3rds?

Read these and study them:

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/harmony/keys-in-music/

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/har...ifths-diagram/

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/har...cle-of-fifths/

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/har...rps-and-flats/

bnutz · #6 02-22-2009, 02:32 PM

Your idea to put something like this together is a good one, however the chart itself is not correct.

Somebody mentioned that you should use lower case b for flat, and this is correct. In a key like C minor, you'd want to use an Eb as the minor third and not D#. We don't need to get into why on this particular thread (there are lots of other music theory threads both on TB and loads of other internet resources, too. But if you're going to start theory training, start doing it properly. You don't want to start thinking about things one way, only to find down the road you've gone about it all wrong.

I definitely applaud your attempts to get something like this going. I made flash cards with keys/notes/chord tones, etc. and found it really helpful when I ready to start thinking about music theory.

Keep at it. Doing work like this will pay off in the long run.

-b

twisty4678 · #7 02-22-2009, 02:42 PM

This really confused me. Aren't Bb and A# the same thing? And what is a relative minor?

headonastick · #8 02-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisty4678

This really confused me. Aren't Bb and A# the same thing? And what is a relative minor?

Bb and A# are (subtly) different for, but on a fretted instrument they can only be played as exactly the same. Even if on our instrument they sound the same it is still important that they are understood as being different from a theory point of view. Thinking of an A# in the key of F major makes no sense, because that would be an augmented 3rd rather than a perfect fourth. The note sounds the same but the interval isn't the same, and it is vital that you understand what the intervalic relationships between notes are when you are playing.

The relative minor of any major key is the minor key that has the same key signature (i.e. the same number of sharps or flats). You can work out the relative minor by taking the sixth degree of any major scale and starting the minor scale from there.

bnutz · #9 02-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisty4678

This really confused me. Aren't Bb and A# the same thing? And what is a relative minor?

The short answer is that they sound the same, but when used in the context of a song or a particular key, they are not interchangeable.

Before opening the relative key can of worms, check out some books/resources on basic music theory. But again, the short answer is you can derive a bunch of other scales by simply using different degrees of the major scale as your starting point.

-b

twisty4678 · #10 02-22-2009, 03:50 PM

Thanks head and bnut. I'm taking a music theory class now, and understand the degrees of a scale. But why would it be important for a scale to have the same key signature?
As for the scale, i don't see why they can't be interchangeble? I mean, did someone just sit down and say it has to be a Bb not A#? If it still comes in the fourth degree, and sounds the same for our purposes, what does it matter?

headonastick · #11 02-22-2009, 04:18 PM

Bb and A# can't both be the fourth degree of a scale though, that's the point. It's not just about how the note sounds, but how you think about it. In terms of the scale you also can't have two iterations of a note in the same scale –*you can't have an A and an A# for example.

twisty4678 · #12 02-22-2009, 04:35 PM

hmm, i guess i just don't get it... if they both are in the fourth spot, why not? And, say it was f major, why couldn't it be : F,G,A,A#,C,D,E,F. ? Is it only because they made a rule saying you can't have two iterations in the same scale? Or is there a specific reason?

headonastick · #13 02-22-2009, 04:43 PM

Because a major scale has to have all seven scale degrees in it, and that means it has to have one, and only one, of each letter between A and G in it. That's just the way scale construction works. In your example there is no fourth scale degree, you have two types of the third degree instead –*a major third and an augmented third relative to the root. Unfortunately some of the simple things in theory only make sense when you understand the more advanced stuff as well. Until that point you just have to accept some of the rules on faith, and look forward to the lightbulb moment you'll get later when it all starts to click into place. If you trust that it's correct to only think of F major as having a Bb it will help you communicate with others, and to understand much of the more advanced theory that goes on top of the knowledge of how scales are constructed.

twisty4678 · #14 02-22-2009, 04:49 PM

Alright, i think i'll just have to accept it as a rule like you said. It's just weird that if i played that it would sound the same as if i played it with Bb, if that makes sense lol.

Jake of Bass · #15 02-22-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisty4678

hmm, i guess i just don't get it... if they both are in the fourth spot, why not? And, say it was f major, why couldn't it be : F,G,A,A#,C,D,E,F. ? Is it only because they made a rule saying you can't have two iterations in the same scale? Or is there a specific reason?

How would you write the key signature for F major if you had both A natural and A# as scale degrees? And if you wrote a note on where the B would be, why would you want to have to write a flat sign before every single B note, providing the song is all diatonic?

F major has a Bb in it's key signature. It makes sense because then you can simply write a flat sign just after the cleff and before the time signature to indicate that anytime you come across a written B note, you automatically play it as Bb. It is MUCH easier to read this way than read a piece that has A and A# all the way through it and cluttering up the piece with a bunch of natural and sharp signs, and having a Bb.

It just becomes far too clumsy and is simply illogical when you already have another process that is much more concise and linear for writing the same key.

WookieeForLife · #16 02-23-2009, 05:24 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll work on a different chart and post it.

twisty4678 · #17 02-23-2009, 08:01 PM

So G flat major is the same as F sharp major, but with different notations? If so, why are some compositions written in one or the other? Just whatever the composer chooses?

Jake of Bass · #18 02-23-2009, 08:09 PM

In the instance of F# major or Gb major, pretty much. Though, as it was pointed out to me in a thread a few weeks ago, in jazz you'll more commonly see something written in Gb, whereas in classical composition you're more likely to see F#.

twisty4678 · #19 02-23-2009, 08:14 PM

Thanks guys, i know there are faqs about this but i tend to get caught up in wording and side topics, where as you guys say it perfectly in terms i can understand. I really do appreciate it!

JTE · #20 02-26-2009, 11:11 AM

When you build a diatonic major scale, or the natural minor scale, you use each letter name only one time. And you only use # or b, not a mixure. That makes it a lot easier to read on the staves and less confusing to talk about. That's so when you write the score in real music, you don't have to make a disticntion between A natural, A#, Bb and B natural. In F, you use Bb and don't have to try to distinquish between A# or Bb.

So, to spell out a scale first write out all the letters in order, the plug in the sharps or flats as needed to get the scale to come out right with the W W H W W W H formula. The order of whole steps and half steps will NOT change (or else it's a different kind of scale!).

So, for Ab major, start with:
A B C D E F G A

Then plug in the W W H W W W H to get

Ab (W) Bb (W) C (H) Db (W) Eb (W) F (W) G (H) Ab

That tells you it's Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

Which is less confusing than calling it Ab A# C C# Eb F G G#.

jte

jte