Choosing your chords

[St Drogo]

So I've never really understood theory as much as I'd like, just some snippets here and there that managed to latch on to my brain. But yesterday someone posted about some vids on youtube about it, called "how music works" (thanks for that!) These are BBC documentaries with four episodes: melody, harmony, rhythm and bass. Somehow, the way things are explained there did speak to me and I'm trying to play around with that.

Now, somewhere in the harmony bit the dude in the show says something like this:
When writing music you first come up with a melody. Then you figure out where the chord changes will be (every measure? Halfway through one? and so on). After that, you just need to figure out what chords to actually use, so you look at what notes the melody is playing when a particular chords would be sounding, and you pick one of the chords that has those notes in them. I'm paraphrasing of course, and of course this is not the only way to make great music, but I'd like to figure it out.

My question is, how do you know what chords have a certain note in them (aside from chords where those notes are the root)? Is it simply a matter of knowing every single chord? That seems kind of daunting to me. I'm sure it's more likely it has something to do with knowing how chords are structured (like, a minor chord has root, minor third, fifth), but is there maybe some sort of shortcut? I'll do my homework eventually, I promise, I just want to get going with this as quickly as possible.

Also, does this maybe have something to do with this "circle of fifths" I keep hearing about? Or am I confusing two totally different things here?

[JTE]

No real shortcuts, but it's not that hard to learn basic chordal harmony. Start with triads (three-note chords), then 7ths (four-note ones). The easiest way is to relate them all to the root. For example:

Major is 1, 3, 5 so a C is C E G, an A is A, C#, E.

Minor is 1, b3, 5 so Cmin is C Eb G and Amin is A C E.

Learn this stuff. "Edley's Music Theory For Practical People" is the best resource I've found for this in 30 years.

Jign

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by JTE

No real shortcuts, but it's not that hard to learn basic chordal harmony. Start with triads (three-note chords), then 7ths (four-note ones). The easiest way is to relate them all to the root. For example:

Major is 1, 3, 5 so a C is C E G, an A is A, C#, E.

Minor is 1, b3, 5 so Cmin is C Eb G and Amin is A C E.

Learn this stuff. "Edley's Music Theory For Practical People" is the best resource I've found for this in 30 years.

Jign

Yeah, I sort of summarily know that stuff, but I still have to stop and reaaally think about it before I know what I'm actually doing, you know? So I was hoping there was either a shortcut, or maybe even better, some sort of way to quickly internalise this stuff.

It's amazing what using this stuff can do for you creativity btw. I used to think it would kill it dead, but I've been in kind of a rut for a bit now, playing the same fingerpatters again and again and this is really helping.

EDIT: Did you mean this book, btw? http://www.amazon.com/Edlys-Music-Th.../dp/0966161602
Thanks for the tip muchacho.

[Cycho]

Having written a fair amount of music I can tell you that writing a song does NOT always begin with the melody. My songs often start with the chord changes and the melody comes later. The lyrics can certainly affect the melody also. Sometimes the lyrics actually come first!

If you are going to find chords for a melody, a reasonable shortcut is to figure out the roots first. For a simple song you may only need to determine major or minor, but in general you have to know as much about chords as possible. Try to use a keyboard instrument and listen to what's in your head.

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by Cycho

Having written a fair amount of music I can tell you that writing a song does NOT always begin with the melody. My songs often start with the chord changes and the melody comes later. The lyrics can certainly affect the melody also. Sometimes the lyrics actually come first!

Oh yeah I know, I've written my fair share of stuff. Hell, I've once written a tune by drawing out my bandmembers initials on the fretboard and assigning a rhythm to those notes. Didn't even sound half bad It's just that I'd like to know how this works and maybe incorporate it too. EDIT: 'cause you know how you write and play fundamentally different things when you play with different people, play using different techniques or change any other factor? I'd like to see where this leads me. I think it might open up a whole new dimension.

good call on the keyboard btw, I was planning on getting one of those small midi boards later this week.

[Intenzity]

It's not as daunting as you think it is.

I tell people - there is a reason music theory 101 is only a one semester course.

Because thats really only about as much time as you need to learn everything you would need to know in order to analyze your average pop/jazz/rock tune and figure out what is going on.

I bet if I asked you "what is 6 X 7", you would just know the answer without even thinking about it. We all learned our times tables up to 12 X 12 by the time we got out of 8th grade (at least)..okay, maybe for the drummers of the world it was more like 10th grade, but either way, we have that stuff implanted in our heads.

There are only 12 notes. It isn't as hard as you think it is. You can easily get that same kind of recall with chords and notes, just bam - automatic, with less work than you think.

And yes, if you have a melody that goes - C C G G A A G (twinkle twinkle little star), and it is in the key of C Major, there a certain chords that will contain those melody notes, and other chords that won't.

Obviously, C major (c,e,g) has a "C" in it. But ..so does F maj, also in the key of C (f, a, c). But there are some very simple guidelines to choose which ones sound best and why. Remember, there has been almost 300 years of people thinking about this stuff and figuring it out and writing it down.

But, yes, basically you got it, you have to know what notes are in the chords and then decide how you want to support those melody notes.

But it all comes down to being able to spell those chords and knowing what kinds are what.

If you want to learn how to spell chords.....

http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/...wing-your.html

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by Intenzity

It's not as daunting as you think it is.

I bet if I asked you "what is 6 X 7", you would just know the answer without even thinking about it. We all learned our times tables up to 12 X 12 by the time we got out of 8th grade (at least)..okay, maybe for the drummers of the world it was more like 10th grade, but either way, we have that stuff implanted in our heads.

Huh. I never thought of it that way. Maths was never my strong point, but you are right, you don't figure out the answer to something like "what is 6 X 7", you just know it from ingrained memory or somesuch. That does make it seem a little more doable, it's just elbowgrease. Hell, I've grinded some World of Warcraft characters all the way up to 70. I can make time for this. Thanks!



EDIT: Funny website by the way.

[MalcolmAmos]

Understanding that the melody line and the cord line should share some notes is the main thing - once you know that the rest is a piece of cake.

How does music think? Let's see how we could write a song. I start with a story, put that into verse form.
Four line verses. Three verses and a chorus usually get it done.

Each verse will bring up a thought, discuss it, reach a conclusion and end that thought. The thought will move through a predictable journey of rest, tension, climax, resoultion and return to rest. That is a journey that every verse should take. Starting at rest (the tonic I chord) then near the end of the verses' first line I add some tension using the IV chord. The second line continues with the IV chord and near the end of the second line I bring in the climax chord (V7) and then quickly end the tension resolving back to the I chord. Notice the verse started with the I chord and the second line ended with the I chord. Must this happen this way all the time? No, but, it's a good way to write the first draft of your first song.

The 3rd and 4th line of the verse repeat this rest, tension, climax and resolution chord movement. Now that gets a first draft. Time to flesh it out and hook the chords to lyric words, i.e. move a chord a little to the left or right in the verse to connect with a word - lit-tle takes two melody notes, things like that.

Time for melody. OK remember we want our melody notes to harmonize with the chords used under them. If both the melody line and the chord line share like notes we get harmonization. What is my first chord? Probably the I tonic chord, let's say it's the C major chord which has the C, E and G notes in it. Which note is going to be my first note? The one that sounds best with the first lyric word. Read that again.

Let's say my first lyric word is Somewhere. Try a C how does it sound? Try the E how does that sound? Yep try the G next. Which one sounds best? First thing I found is I'm going to need a note for "Some" and another note for "where" I like C over "Some" and G over "where" - it's your song you decide.

OK you have the first note going with the first lyric word - keep going. I go to the keyboard for this - much easier on the keyboard than on your fretboard. Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDh0OFDCAk

Work toward harmonizing melodic phrases - melody notes with chords under them that sound good.

Yes you kinda need to know what the notes in a chord are going to be. Here is a trick.
Look to the scale. Chords are build from scale notes. C scale has these notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. OK skip a note will build the chords in the key of C. Here's how.
C chord = C, E, G that is the 1-3-5 notes in the C scale - that is also the chord spelling - that tells me it is going to be a major chord. Why? It has a natural 3. Hang with me.....
Next note is D. Skip a note and get D, F, A. Look up the notes in the D scale D is the 1 note, F# is the 3rd note in the scale so that F# is flatted to an F. The A note is the 5th note in the D scale so the chord spelling for the second chord in the key of C is Dm - 1-b3-5. Yep the b3 tells me it's a minor chord. See how it all works together......

See what you can do with the rest of the C scale. You might find this helpful. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11975

Good luck.

[mwbassace]

Originally Posted by Intenzity

It's not as daunting as you think it is.

I tell people - there is a reason music theory 101 is only a one semester course.

Because thats really only about as much time as you need to learn everything you would need to know in order to analyze your average pop/jazz/rock tune and figure out what is going on.

I bet if I asked you "what is 6 X 7", you would just know the answer without even thinking about it. We all learned our times tables up to 12 X 12 by the time we got out of 8th grade (at least)..okay, maybe for the drummers of the world it was more like 10th grade, but either way, we have that stuff implanted in our heads.

There are only 12 notes. It isn't as hard as you think it is. You can easily get that same kind of recall with chords and notes, just bam - automatic, with less work than you think.

And yes, if you have a melody that goes - C C G G A A G (twinkle twinkle little star), and it is in the key of C Major, there a certain chords that will contain those melody notes, and other chords that won't.

Obviously, C major (c,e,g) has a "C" in it. But ..so does F maj, also in the key of C (f, a, c). But there are some very simple guidelines to choose which ones sound best and why. Remember, there has been almost 300 years of people thinking about this stuff and figuring it out and writing it down.

But, yes, basically you got it, you have to know what notes are in the chords and then decide how you want to support those melody notes.

But it all comes down to being able to spell those chords and knowing what kinds are what.

If you want to learn how to spell chords.....

http://bassoridiculoso.blogspot.com/...wing-your.html

WOW! That link just made lots of the stuff my teacher taught me 20+ years ago, what I learned over the years & the wealth of theory that I've learned here on TB since I discovered TB come to light! I got stuck in the "know enough to get by" rut for a long time & always looked down on myself, as a player, for not knowing more "theory". But you'all here on TB have been a godsend for helping me realize that I actually knew more than I was aware & for the light bulb to come on!!! I have a lot more to learn and more theory knowledge I already know that could use a "light bulb moment" like this chord info did (modes comes to mind). But for anyone who thinks theory & creativity are at odds is nuts, IMO! All this info has got my creative juices flowing and maybe I'll even be able to solo!! Dare to dream my bass brothers, dare to dream!!!

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by St Drogo

.......Also, does this maybe have something to do with this "circle of fifths" I keep hearing about? Or am I confusing two totally different things here?

Really two different things here. The circle tells you a lot of things once you know how to read what is on the circle.

I used it to remember what chords like to go to what other chords, which scales have sharps or flats in them - and how many - what relative minor goes with what major scale things like that.

Another story, best handled in another string.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by St Drogo

Yeah, I sort of summarily know that stuff, but I still have to stop and reaaally think about it before I know what I'm actually doing, you know? So I was hoping there was either a shortcut, or maybe even better, some sort of way to quickly internalise this stuff.

It's amazing what using this stuff can do for you creativity btw. I used to think it would kill it dead, but I've been in kind of a rut for a bit now, playing the same fingerpatters again and again and this is really helping.

EDIT: Did you mean this book, btw? http://www.amazon.com/Edlys-Music-Th.../dp/0966161602
Thanks for the tip muchacho.

First, yeah, that's the book. I wish it had been available 20+years ago when I was teaching full-time. I love it because:
A. He doesn't assume you read music, but he does make a very good case for understanding the language of music.
B. He doesn't assume that the only music that's valid for study and performance is European Classical music and/or jazz. He draws examples from all over the musical spectrum.
C. He includes bass instruments, even putting the exercises in bass clef.
D. He's funny without being comedic nor distracting.
E. He's got great illustrations, graphics, etc. that really help to explain how this stuff works- many of them are exactly like what I used to hand-write for my students.

My original post was short because I was typing on the phone, but the basics are you do need to know what chords are. Maybe not get involved with the esoteric discussions about 11th chords or whether the color note in "the Jimi Hendrix chord" is a b3 against the 3, or is it a #9. But you do need to be able to figure out for yourself for the main chords (which are major, minor, augmented, and diminished triads, and the major 7, minor7, dominant 7, minor 7 b5 (a/k/a half-diminished) and the diminished 7.

For each of these you need to be able to figure out (that's learning, not memorization):
A. What scale degrees are in there? (for a major chord it's 1, 3, 5; for a minor 7 it's 1, b3, 5, b7, etc.)
B. What notes for this specific chord (e.g. for an A major its' A C# E, and for an Amin7 it's A C E G)- in any key so you gotta get the correct enharmonics- know why it's an F# in a G Maj7 and not called a Gb).
C. Be able to find 'em on the neck in a logical and flexible manner.
D. I also think it's very useful to understand chords in terms of the intervals- like knowing that a major triad is a major third with a minor third on top, that a minor 7 is a minor third, then a major third, then another minor. Besides helping understand extensions it also helps make clear how the harmonized scale works...
E. Musicians also need to understand the harmonized scale- it kinda pointless to know that the chords in the key of C are CMaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, FMaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bmin7b5 if you don't know WHY. Understanding the WHY is how you learn the WHAT without memorization (and there's very little I think you need to memorize- you'll LEARN what you use). So if you don't play in Ab much, you don't need to know the chords there, but if you know the WHY you'll be able to figure them out when you need 'em.

Have fun, it's great journey, and don't let it get daunting. It's part and parcel of being a great bassist (see the thread about what other musicians want in a bassist over), but it's not the whole story. This stuff will help you understand great bass lines, how great songs work, etc. But it's not iron-bound rules. Here's one of the very few things about music theory I think need to be memorized- two related rules.
I. If it sounds good, it's right.
II. If it sounds bad, it's wrong.
Theory is merely a set of observations of what things tend to sound good to people, not rules that should prevent anyone from doing something. If that were the case, we'd never hear blues notes of the minor third against a major chord!

John

[mambo4]

It is worth noting how obvious harmony can be when you look at things notated on the staff, even if you are not a fluent sight reader .
those lines and spaces are all a 3rd apart, and they lend themselves naturally to stacking thirds and building harmony.
So it's pretty easy to "test drive" various chords by auditioning notes on neighboring lines and spaces.

Another thing the staff can tech you: If you memorize the lines of bass and treble clef and include middle C , you get a "cycle of thirds" GBDFA C EGBDF
a handy way to memorize the order of notes in the chords.
Of course, you need to add sharps and flats to fit the key of the melody
(You don't have to be in the same key as the melody, if you want to Jazz it up of try something else, but it's a safe starting point.)

[THUNDERGODX]

What's a Jimi Hendrix chord?

[THUNDERGODX]

How do I put an Avatar on here?

[mambo4]

the Hendrix chord = Dom 7#9
To get an avatar you must be a paid supporting member

[pbd]

nice thread you guys, just peeking in on the conversation, I've always played by feel but knowing "stuff" about music sure has helped me feel what I am playing much faster and sound better!

thanks for the discussion

Todd

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by THUNDERGODX

What's a Jimi Hendrix chord?

Yeah, really creepy..I usually turn all the lights on and pace, looking out the window at varying intrevals after I hear this chord.

Or, some people write music because it sounds good...and then figure out later that there was a formula for it...and some of the creative juices that made you think you were somewhat 'chosen' have been around since, I don't know, the Dark Ages..

[groooooove]

the answer you dont want to hear is- learn more theory.

what you've suggested is not that difficult. you just need to know whats going on when you look at a melody.

in genneral, yes- the idea is, look at what groups of notes are happening, and decide what chord it seems to be "based on." now, pitches occur in more than one chord in every key- for example, "Do" is both the root of the I chord and 5th of the IV chord. how do you know what to use? its pretty simple, because the function of a IV chord is differnt than a I chord (in common practice tonality, atleast.)

now, you said "memorize each chord." thats really not that difficult. all you actually need to learn are the 3-letter combonations that create the triads built on each pitch name-
CEG
GBD
DFA
ACE
EGB
BDF
FAC

the key signature takes care of all of the accidentals- really its knowing these combinations that is essential to understanding more about your question. i dont know what kind of music you'll be working with, but you may need to learn about chords in inversion too if your getting into this sort of thing.

[Chris K]

Music consist of melodies, not of chords.
The melody is... a melody.
The bass line is a melody.
Every line between bass and melody is a melody as well.

These melodies may coincide here and there to form chords.

They may.

IMO/IME well focused melodies that go somewhere are far more important than chords. Even outright dissonants will sound good if the melodies are good.

Chords are just an outcome of music, not the tool to create it.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Chris K

Music consist of melodies, not of chords.
The melody is... a melody.
The bass line is a melody.
Every line between bass and melody is a melody as well.

These melodies may coincide here and there to form chords.

They may.

IMO/IME well focused melodies that go somewhere are far more important than chords. Even outright dissonants will sound good if the melodies are good.

Chords are just an outcome of music, not the tool to create it.

Chris-

You're right, but that doesn't mean the other approach is wrong. A lot of good songs have been written by someone sitting with an acoustic guitar or a piano, humming a melody, and finding chords to go with it. And others have been written from someone having a cool set of chord changes that suggested a melody to them. I'd never want to restrict people to only doing one approach to the exclusion of the other.

Besides, this can also start getting to the differences and/or overlap between composing and arranging. I'm very very opposed to the idea that a particular recording of a particular arrangement IS the song. The song often can (and in my opinion, good songs simply MUST be able to) stand apart from a specific performance or arrangement. So the internal voice-leadings of a particular voicing of chords by guitarists for example generally are not critical to the song and so aren't part of the composition.

And yeah, I saw the

John