Chord changes????? Help please!

[tbone0813]

I was reading an article by Carol King, and had a question. She says "when a chord changes from a major to a minor (e.g. C to Cm) you can always go directly to the next cyclic dominant chord (e.g. F7/F9) because F7 is Cm, the ii and V7 are though of as one chord. This only happens from major to minor". OK so she is saying that when you go from C to Cm the next note in the cycle of fifths from C(m) is F so I can play an F7 over a Cm if the chord progression is going from C to Cm. Right???? What if the chord progression is going from a Db to a Bbm? Can I play the Eb7 over the Bbm, or does this only pertain to C to Cm, Bb to Bbm, D to Dm, etc....?

Am I understanding it correctly?

[steveb98]

There must be more to what she said. F7 doesn't not equal Cm. C Eb G Bb and F A C Eb. The main notes in Cm are Eb and Bb the 3rd and 7th define chord family. F would be the 11th and A the 13th. A subsitute for Cm would be either Eb maj. Some people would play F7 (or F mixolydian) over the Cm (acting as a ii chord) since it is head their. Robben Ford did that a lot when with Miles Davis. Robben likes play over dominiant chords. Robben would say it's going to get there in a second so why not? Then there are other chord subsutitions that can be throw in. That why I have a feeling there is more to what she was saying or more chords in the example.

Your comment on Db down to Bbm that is the relative minor. Bbm minor (and Fm) are subsitution for Db. Play Bbm against Db you are implying a Db6 chord.

What I would say in things like this you need to see what chord proceeded the chord in question, and what chord is it going to. Then you can decide how it is functioning, and what your options are for chord subsituions and potential scales to play over it.

[tbone0813]

Originally Posted by steveb98

There must be more to what she said. F7 doesn't not equal Cm. C Eb G Bb and F A C Eb. The main notes in Cm are Eb and Bb the 3rd and 7th define chord family. F would be the 11th and A the 13th. A subsitute for Cm would be either Eb maj. Some people would play F7 (or F mixolydian) over the Cm (acting as a ii chord) since it is head their. Robben Ford did that a lot when with Miles Davis. Robben likes play over dominiant chords. Robben would say it's going to get there in a second so why not? Then there are other chord subsutitions that can be throw in. That why I have a feeling there is more to what she was saying or more chords in the example.

Your comment on Db down to Bbm that is the relative minor. Bbm minor (and Fm) are subsitution for Db. Play Bbm against Db you are implying a Db6 chord.

What I would say in things like this you need to see what chord proceeded the chord in question, and what chord is it going to. Then you can decide how it is functioning, and what your options are for chord subsituions and potential scales to play over it.

The example chord progression is Cmaj7/Cm/Gmaj7. She says you can play Cmaj7/F7/Gmaj7 instead. What I typed in red is exactly taken from her lesson in Bassics magazine so if there is more she didn't include it in the lesson.

[Bassist4Life]

I'm not sure of the context, but it sounds like a reharmonization technique.

You can put a ii7 chord before and V7 chord. You see this a lot in jazz.

For example:

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7
These chords follow the cycle and are found in the bridge of "Rhythm Changes".

The progression can be changed to:

Am7 D7 | Dm7 G7 | Gm7 C7 | Cm7 F7

The bold chords are the original progression.

Notice that I put a ii7 before each of the bold chords.

Notice that the bold chord becomes a minor in the next measure.

Do you think that this is what you were reading about?

Joe

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by tbone0813

The example chord progression is Cmaj7/Cm/Gmaj7. She says you can play Cmaj7/F7/Gmaj7 instead. What I typed in red is exactly taken from her lesson in Bassics magazine so if there is more she didn't include it in the lesson.

Oh, you're talking about Carol Kaye (not Carol King). It's cool...

I'm not sure where you'd find that progression:
IV Maj7 | iv7 | I Maj7

changed to:
IV Maj7 | bVII7 | I Maj7

I have a subscription to Bassics. Which issue are you looking at?

Joe

[tbone0813]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

Oh, you're talking about Carol Kaye (not Carol King). It's cool...

OK now I feel like an idiot. They don't even look the same. Almost totally opposite.

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I have a subscription to Bassics. Which issue are you looking at?

Issue 31

[Bassist4Life]

Darn. My first issue was 35.

What is the title of her lesson?
What is her closing statement?
What are the musical examples like?

Can you give a little more context/detail. I really want to help you out. I dig theory questions.

Joe

[Bassist4Life]

The more I read your original post, the more I think that it's all about this:

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I'm not sure of the context, but it sounds like a reharmonization technique.

You can put a ii7 chord before and V7 chord. You see this a lot in jazz.

For example:

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7
These chords follow the cycle and are found in the bridge of "Rhythm Changes".

The progression can be changed to:

Am7 D7 | Dm7 G7 | Gm7 C7 | Cm7 F7

The bold chords are the original progression.

Notice that I put a ii7 before each of the bold chords.

Notice that the bold chord becomes a minor in the next measure.

Do you think that this is what you were reading about?

Joe

[tbone0813]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

Darn. My first issue was 35.

What is the title of her lesson?
What is her closing statement?
What are the musical examples like?

Can you give a little more context/detail. I really want to help you out. I dig theory questions.

Joe

Can I email you a PDF version of the article I have scanned?

[tbone0813]

Here is a link to the PDF file of the article that I have hosted.

'Bassically Yours'

[Bassist4Life]

It looks like she's showing us an option.

The Cm7 and F7 have the pitches C and Eb in common. C to F gives us a better root movement.

I guess it's just one of those things that musicians have done and it works. We'll have to take her word for it and try it out for ourselves.

Joe

[thebassclef]

I don't know about the rest of you, But I am more confused about this AFTER reading the articlr and lestening to the MP3.

I see the different root movement, But wouldn't you have to re-think the chord chart in order to accomplish this? And if so, would that really be practical and to what the original song writer intended?

[WillBuckingham]

Jazz charts are usually interperations of songs, not what's actually penned by a composer. This is an example of a substition of one chord for another. It's even possible that the substitution is more like the original composition that what's on a page in front of you.

Jazz music is referred to as "collective improvisation" because these things happen collectively. You need to listen to what the other musicians in the band are doing, and if you think a certain substition will work in that context.

EDIT: For this example, the vast majority of the time a chord goes form major to minor, the minor is functioning as a ii, and the next chord is a V7, so you just skip a chord, essentially.

[Andrew Jones]

I don't really understand Carol's wording/explanation............

I feel she is teaching 2 topics and not really being clear which one she's talking about.

Thinking about it, I believe her lesson was what bassist4life was saying, only Joe said it clearer.


Another Lesson is


Whats happening here is in this example the Cmaj is actually the IV cord of the tune.... The Tunes in G

So the C- is a parallel minor modal interchange cord , IE in G natural minor (Bb major)the C minor is the IV- Cord. Yes, because of its relationship to F7 (II-V) you can sub that F7.You could do it over the second bar,which gives you a common IV-,bVII7 or as carol is doing here for the whole 2 bars.

Aj

Thats my 1500th post , gentlemen enjoy

[thebassclef]

^ O-Tay

[Groovy Bastard]

All that she's saying is that when you have a II-V you can play the V over the II (or the II over the V if you want to). Yes, when you look at all the notes vertically there will be 'clashes', but when you use the right licks it works excellent. Wes Montgomery does it all the time.

[slybass3000]

I haven't read all the replies but here is my explanation for this:
She comes from a time where the sus4 chords and sounds started to emerged and the bass notes were used to change the quality of a chord and it is still founded in a lot tunes to use Cm/F to have a dominant or a sus4 sound. You can alternate between the 2 roots (C andF) to give a ii-v sound to the chord progression if you want to.

SB

[tbone0813]

Good info here. Thanks everyone.

[jgbass]

tbone,

I would suggest if you still have questions to email her directly. You will get an answer. She has always been generous in explaining things via the computer, and the email address should be on her website. I undestand what she is saying, because I have studied her work, but not sure how to explain it any other way.

[tbone0813]

I emailed Carol the same question in my original post. This is her response back to me.

Thanks for your message. Yes, any ii and V7 are paired for improv ideas....you can also walk notes that way. ii and V7 in this sense are always "moveable do" chords....the ii and V7 can be any ii V7 - you don't have to stick to the key which is the "immoveable do".....You don't play "over" a chord no, you always pair your chordal options together.

This is VERY common in real jazz musicianship but not taught today because.....so many teachers today only came from playing rock and roll and don't know all the great chordal and sub-chordal patterns that we used in the 1950s.

I am from the 1950s (been playing jazz gigs and teaching since 1949), played with the finest jazz innovators in LA, south LA, SouthBay, Hollywood etc..and had a big name in playing jazz guitar way before I ever did studio work. Like many other teachers scattered all over the USA, and moreso, in the black colleges which are sort of inaccessible to most people, this is very common in teaching....you can't get jazz improv from all the stupid note-scales that former rockers try to teach (because they have no clue to how jazz improv was innovated in the first place from Standards and chordal progressions).

What I wrote about is not only very common, but is one of the simpler forms of chordal theory, sub-chordal patterns. You always pair the ii and V7 together: Dm/G7, Fm/Bb7, Ab7/Ebm, Cm/F7 etc....for any kind of option you want for the minor and also for that 7th chord (dominant which is 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th). See attachment.

Bassics is a good magazine howbeit Ron doesn't know what I sneak in there that sort of conterdicts what his other writers try to write...I write the real ways of getting your jazz improv together. I was quite good on guitar , and well-known in the bebop jazz gigs of the 1950s, even George Shearing wanted me to join his group in 1962 but having been on the road in the middle 1950s, and doing a lot of studio work in 1962, couldn't leave my kids and make only 1/4 of what I making in the studios...

studio musicians make anywhere from 4-10x as much as live musicians on tour, doesn't matter who you're with. It was accidental I got into playing bass in 1963 in the studios (when someone didn't show up on a date at Capitol Records)....you do what you can when being the sole responsibility for support of your children. See attachments....and also hear the jazz in the sound clips in CATALOG on my website, also see film-clips of jazz playing on both bass and guitar (guitar with George Benson jam).... www.carolkaye.com