Chord Progression Analysys Problem

[gerison]

I'm just sitting over the follwing Chord Progression

C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
Key:c, the chord have the follwoing places
C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
I VI II V ? ? I V
I figured out the following II-V-I progressons

II V I
C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
II V I

First: Is it still a II V I if it the V Chord is minor? and
Second: What about Ab, Db; It's V-I but how it fit's to C and the key in C general. If I would assume that Am, Dm, G opens a new key in G a still can't handle Ab and Db.. so what is it?

It would be great if I could get some help on this, and understandig music a little better.

thanks

[gerison]

The layout of my prior post is not what I inteded to look like..
The first II V I should be Dm,G, ? ? C
The second: Am, Dm, G

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by gerison

First: Is it still a II V I if it the V Chord is minor?

typically, II-V-I changes look like this:
major key: ii (min7) - V7(dom7) - I(maj7)
minor key: ii(min7b5) - V7 - I(min or min-maj7)

(writing "II-V-I" kind of implies only major chords, which is NOT typical. Caps =major, lower case =minor )

The V is almost always a dominant chord or some alteration / substitution for one.

Originally Posted by gerison

Second: What about Ab, Db; It's V-I but how it fit's to C and the key in C general. If I would assume that Am, Dm, G opens a new key in G a still can't handle Ab and Db.. so what is it?
thanks

I doesn't fit in the key, it is either modulation to a new key or they are "flat five" or tritone substitutes for D7 -G7. D7 can be replaced with an Ab7, and G7 with Db7

[gerison]

So the Db is the Tritone Substitution to G7 and therfor it is the V moving to the tonic C. and everybody lives a tension free life ever after.
The Db therfore itself ist a temporarily I, while the Ab is the coresponding V to it ant therfor itself is at liest a V-I progession. right?
But from G to Ab... is this something like a chromatic approach over the whole chord?

[4Strings46]

There's only one cycle, the chordal progression: C

to F to Bb to Eb to Ab Db Gb(F#) to B to E A D G to C.
If you are familiar with the key signatures you will notice it is the same order.
-- F is 1 flat, Bb 2 flats, etc.....B is

5 sharps, E is 4 sharps etc, Then a back-cycle is going backward on

the cycle -- Em//// B7(back cycling on the chord)//// to Em///.

The E7 back to G is Cyclic or a perfect cycle.You can also use Inversions which are
different chordal notes on the bottom.
important to know that's what they are called: G chord R 3 5 R G B D G

(root inversion it's sometimes called) 1st inversion is: 3 5 R 3 B D G B

2nd inversion 5 R 3 5 D G B D and so on with all the chords

[gerison]

Thank you, everything you've written is pretty much clear to me. But just can't figure out to solve the G to Ab thing on basis of that information.
maybe you can take a second look, and explain that to me..

thanks

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by gerison

Thank you, everything you've written is pretty much clear to me. But just can't figure out to solve the G to Ab thing on basis of that information.
maybe you can take a second look, and explain that to me..

thanks

if you don't mind me saying so, you're bogging yourself down in minutiae. Do you really need to relate it to a number to get it? if it were me, i'd call them a b6 and a b9 (b meaning flat, of course), but hardly important in the grand scheme of things if you already know the chords.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by gerison

Thank you, everything you've written is pretty much clear to me. But just can't figure out to solve the G to Ab thing on basis of that information.
maybe you can take a second look, and explain that to me..

thanks

+1 to jimmy M's point.
But even so:

a ii-V-I in C major:
Dmin G7 Cmaj7

if you tritone sub for BOTH the ii and the V:
Ab7(of some flavor) Db7 (of some flavor) Cmaj

It is common for Jazzoids to throw in ii-V's in the key of upcoming chord without much regard for the diatonic key of the piece. Just as common to drop a tritone sub inplace of any chord that is moving a fourth, again without reguard for the key.

[4Strings46]

The only other thing I can think of is when walking alot of bass players will use a 2nd which is Ab of the G Maj scale. What do you think?
Technically Ab7= Ab-C-Eb-Gb

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

if you don't mind me saying so, you're bogging yourself down in minutiae. Do you really need to relate it to a number to get it? if it were me, i'd call them a b6 and a b9 (b meaning flat, of course), but hardly important in the grand scheme of things if you already know the chords.

Correct if you just want to play the tune.
Insufficient if you want to analyse it, but so are those nasty numbers.

As for Db and Ab in the key of C:

It's important to step up from Roman numerals to harmonic functions. In many cases Db is a strong dominant compared to G7, so it has to come after G7 (if you care to follow the 'rules' of classical harmony).
Ab is a strong subdominant compared to F or Dm, so it has to come after them, creating tension. It is practically always followed by a V7 or a I in second inversion (important knowledge for bass players!). In both cases, the bass will play Ab- G, unless they appear in the melody.

[togglehead]

I saw somewhere a visual diagram of the circle of fifths directly next to a circle of fifths using tritone substitution...and the root chord names were chromatic. I wish for the life of me i could find (or recreate) that diagram. It might help here...

Something along lines of:

Std. = C - G - D - A - E - B
Sub = C - Db - D - Eb - E - F

Forgive me if im screwing this up, or confusing things more...

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by 4Strings46

The only other thing I can think of is when walking alot of bass players will use a 2nd which is Ab of the G Maj scale. What do you think?

I think that's confusingly worded.
the 2nd of Gmaj = A, not Ab.
I assume you mean something else.

Originally Posted by 4Strings46

Technically Ab7= Ab-C-Eb-Gb

that's how the tritone sub works:
D7 : D F# A C
Ab7: Ab C Eb Gb

bold notes are the same (F# is Gb)

more importantly it's the 3 and the 7 of the chords:
The 3 of the V7 -> b7 of the Tritone sub,
The b7 of the V7 -> 3 of the Tritone sub

so the harmonic function is the same, while the root note motion to the next chord in the cycle becomes smoother.

[4Strings46]

Mambo,
My bad. it is A. Its easier for me to to hear it and see it on the fretboard. lol.

[JimmyM]

i'm sorry...it appears i need glasses or i'm losing my marbles (probably a combo of both). i thought he was just trying to figure out a way to number around the scale notes. had no idea he was trying to apply them as substitutions in a song

anyway, senior moment over...i'll just move off to the side and not say much.