A chord progression and corresponding/overlapping modes.

[Barfy]

Our hypothetical rhythm guitarist is playing the following progression:

Gm Cm7 D#m7

(I chose those guitar chords because they were on the list of what's compatible with a bassline in G Phrygian.)

Over and over again for ten minutes, in that order. It's in the key of G.

I, the bassist, am playing Phrygian in the key of G, mode III of the major scale. The notes contained therein are G (root), Ab (b2), Bb (b3), C (p4), D (p5), Eb (b6), F (b7) and G (8).

I assume that it's generally the thing to play 'C' in the moment when the guitarist changes to Cm7, and D# in the moment when he changes to D#m7, and then go back to the root (or hit the octave) in the moment when he switches back to Gm.

Beyond that, I can noodle away? It's not going to sound too sour if he's strumming away uniformly at Gm and out of nowhere I start yanking the F and C (R + 5) real hard on the high strings? At what point would it constitute "straying" or being "out of key"? Or should I just trust my ear? (I've had pros tell me they're jealous of my ear.)

Also, when he's playing Cm7, it looks like if I put my first finger on C and consider it the "root", I suddenly go from Phrygian mode to Aeolian mode. There's a multi-page thread with a rather confusing theory debate that may have something to do with this observation. So when he's playing Cm7, I can start noodling away in C Aeolian until the next chord change? Or ought I not stray too far from G Phrygian?

And then... it looks like G Phrygian corresponds with D# Ionian.

Uhhhh... so if he's strumming away on D#m7, I can noodle away in D# Ionian or I should stick to G Phrygian? Or I can do... both?

Or, how about this... if he's strumming away in D#m7, I could also noodle around in... C Aeolian?

"A whoooole newwwww (confusing) worrrrlllld...."

[Toronto Bassist]

Originally Posted by Barfy

Our hypothetical rhythm guitarist is playing the following progression:

Gm Cm7 D#m7

(I chose those guitar chords because they were on the list of what's compatible with a bassline in G Phrygian.)

No they're not. D#m7 (it should really be Ebm7 but anyways) contains an F# and C#, both of which are outside of G Phrygian. D#maj7, however, would be within the key/mode.

I assume that it's generally the thing to play 'C' in the moment when the guitarist changes to Cm7, and D# in the moment when he changes to D#m7, and then go back to the root (or hit the octave) in the moment when he switches back to Gm.

Beyond that, I can noodle away? It's not going to sound too sour if he's strumming away uniformly at Gm and out of nowhere I start yanking the F and C (R + 5) real hard on the high strings? At what point would it constitute "straying" or being "out of key"?

That depends, are you doing a bass solo, or are you backing up someone else? If you're doing a solo, then yes you can play all that noodly scale stuff. But if you're backing someone up with a bassline, you should mostly stick to chord tones and whatever passing tones get you to the next chord.

Also, when he's playing Cm7, it looks like if I put my first finger on C and consider it the "root", I suddenly go from Phrygian mode to Aeolian mode. There's a multi-page thread with a rather confusing theory debate that may have something to do with this observation. So when he's playing Cm7, I can start noodling away in C Aeolian until the next chord change? Or ought I not stray too far from G Phrygian?

Well, what are the notes in Cm7? C, Eb, G, Bb. So yes, you could use Aeolian or Dorian or even a C blues scale if you wanted. You're just connecting the dots between chord tones anyways. My own opinion is that Dorian would probably sound the hippest though, but that depends on the context.

And then... it looks like G Phrygian corresponds with D# Ionian.

G Phrygian is the third mode of Eb or D# Ionian, yes.

Uhhhh... so if he's strumming away on D#m7, I can noodle away in D# Ionian or I should stick to G Phrygian? Or I can do... both?

D# Ionian and G Phrygian are identical, but both would clash terribly with a D#m7 chord - again, due to the F# and C#

Or, how about this... if he's strumming away in D#m7, I could also noodle around in... C Aeolian?

C Aeolian would sound pretty terrible with D#m7. The C, D, F, and G would clash pretty badly unless you had some sort of super clever way of resolving them.

And if you really wanted something to sound G Phrygian-y, you should have the guitarist alternate between Ab/G and Bb/G over and over again. But that's a horse of another color.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Toronto Bassist

No they're not. D#m7 (it should really be Ebm7 but anyways) contains an F# and C#, both of which are outside of G Phrygian. D#maj7, however, would be within the key/mode.

And if you really wanted something to sound G Phrygian-y, you should have the guitarist alternate between Ab/G and Bb/G over and over again. But that's a horse of another color.

Spot on! Especially the last point. Always nice to find people who know their modal theory.

When playing modal progressions, it's essential for the bass to reinforce the tonic of the mode to lay down the sonic idiosyncrasy of the mode. Not to say you can't play around, just know when to rein yourself in to impress upon the listener the "phrygian"-ness of the composition. Remember: the song comes first, then the individual instruments. No noodling for the sake of it!

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by champbassist

.....When playing modal progressions, it's essential for the bass to reinforce the tonic of the mode to lay down the sonic idiosyncrasy of the mode. Not to say you can't play around, just know when to rein yourself in to impress upon the listener the "phrygian"-ness of the composition. Remember: the song comes first, then the individual instruments. No noodling for the sake of it!

Yes to featuring the root and the idiosyncrasy of the mode. And by idiosyncrasy I assume you mean Phrygian's b2 or Dorian's natural 6, etc.

Few more words on "idiosyncrasy" would be appreciated, i.e. as you say; "the phrygian"-ness". Another question; once I've decided on a mode I play that mode's notes over the entire solo break (all of the chord progression or vamp) once committed I stay with that mode. If I elected to use pentatonic then I would change over the chords. Few words on that would be appreciated.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Barfy

Our hypothetical rhythm guitarist is playing the following progression:

Gm Cm7 D#m7

(I chose those guitar chords because they were on the list of what's compatible with a bassline in G Phrygian.)

Hold your horses for a minute. D#m7, as has been observed, is NOT compatible with G phrygian (the note D# doesn't even exist in G phrygian; as I explained to you in another thread, nomenclature is important). Nor is Ebm7 (because of the Db and the Gb). Ebmaj7 is, and so is Abmaj7.

In addition, from the chords you chose, as both Toronto and champ suggest, there isn't a particularly strong sense of "Phrygianity.". depending on what that D#m7 was actually supposed to be, you could be just in plain old G minor.

First decide what the chords actually are, and then figure out what mode(s) or key(s).

And no, you don't necessarily have to use a different mode for each chord. That's the whole point of many of the mode/key discussions on here. If the chords all fall into a single overarching key or modality, you don't have to change modes, you just have to make different selections from within the key/modality. If you're truly in G phrygian, just focus on the 1357 notes of G phrygian when you're on the Gm7--IOW the chord tones--on the 4682 notes of G phrygian when you're on the Cm7, and so on. That's how the whole notion of key or modality connects and holds together.

If, however, the chords don't relate to each other that way, and are in a sense harmonically discrete (see the Pitch Axis discussion) for example, then you'd need to start thinking about different chord-scales.

"Noodling away" rarely makes sense in any context. Whatever harmonic approach you take, a fundamental issue you have to deal with is chord tones vs. non-chord tones.

[Jim11895]

Hey guys,

I'm a newbie bass player and this thread caught my attention because I'm starting to learn modes, etc. This really helped me to understand some of this stuff. Just wanted to say thanks.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yes to featuring the root and the idiosyncrasy of the mode. And by idiosyncrasy I assume you mean Phrygian's b2 or Dorian's natural 6, etc.

By "sonic idiosyncrasy" I meant the particular "flavors" of the mode. For example, a prominent characteristic of the Phrygian mode is that it's pretty heavy and dark sounding, which is, to a large degree, the resultant of the minor 2nd, alongwith the rest of the "minor" notes. That is what "the phrygian"-ness" is. I remarked that Toronto Bassist's last suggestion was a good one because keeping the tonic of the mode in the bass when playing associated chords (on a guitar, for example) is a very effective way of implementing a mode's "flavor".

[Toronto Bassist]

Well, it's a "trick" my composition teacher showed me once. If you want to accentuate the sound of a mode, have the bass (or the left hand of the piano) play the root note of the mode, while the chordal instrument alternates between the IV and V chords (triads) of the parent key. So in the case of G Phrygian, you would play the root note of the mode (G), and its parent key is EB, so alternating the IV - V chords would be Ab and Bb.

Or if you wanted, say G Lydian, you could play the root note of the mode (G) and the parent key is D, so the chords would alternate between G and A.

edit: here's a recording of me doing this with A Lydian...the bass continues playing an A while the guitars alternate between A and B. Of course, Lydian can be a bit on the trippy side, so I felt it necessary to wash the guitars in a swath of delay.

http://www.vaughn-s.net/lydian.mp3

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Barfy

Also, when he's playing Cm7, it looks like if I put my first finger on C and consider it the "root", I suddenly go from Phrygian mode to Aeolian mode.

Why would you think you need to do that? If you're still within the same "master" mode or key, just think of yourself as playing off the 4th degree of G phrygian.

Just as when you're playing diatonically in C major, and you hit an F major chord, you don't have to think of yourself as suddenly moving to F lydian. You're still in C major, so you can act like it: namely, by just making a different selection from within your key. On the F chord, your chord tones are the 4-6-8(1) of the key, and your non-chord tones are the 2-3-5-7. This is what being in a key means, in fact. When you're playing within a key, you don't enter a new harmonic world at every chord, you move around or progress within the same world. And the root note of the chord you happen to be playing at the moment does NOT have to be the same note as the key note of the overall key/mode you're in.

Things do get more involved than this, but start here to get a sense of what it means to play in a key.

Try this exercise: pick a mode, let's say G phrygian, and play arpeggiated triads off all of its degrees:

G Bb D
Ab C Eb
Bb D F
C Eb G
D F Ab
Eb G Bb
F Ab C
G Bb D

You have been in G phrygian all the time, just playing off different degrees. A different root note of a chord is not automatically tantamount to a change in mode or key.

[onlyclave]

OMG Modes are the key to everything! I love this thread. :|

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

OMG Modes are the key to everything! I love this thread. :|

Snarky bastige....

[joebar]

once a person is a great knowledge of the fretboard, i believe that he should use his ear; what sounds good is good. i never worry about what mode will work in a given situation; i already have a good understanding of what will work and what accidentals i can throw in etc. i guess i just simplify it and train the ear.
i couldn't always tell someone what i am doing, but when i do it , it sounds good. the end result is what matters

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by joebar

once a person is a great knowledge of the fretboard, i believe that he should use his ear; what sounds good is good. i never worry about what mode will work in a given situation; i already have a good understanding of what will work and what accidentals i can throw in etc. i guess i just simplify it and train the ear.
i couldn't always tell someone what i am doing, but when i do it , it sounds good. the end result is what matters

Yeah, but I personally think of modes as a tool to bring musical novelty into your compositions. It'd be very difficult for one to use modes in his/her music unless they knew at least the basics of modes beforehand. Exceptions always exist, though.

[251]

Originally Posted by Barfy

Our hypothetical rhythm guitarist is playing the following progression:

Gm Cm7 D#m7

(I chose those guitar chords because they were on the list of what's compatible with a bassline in G Phrygian.) Over and over again for ten minutes, in that order. It's in the key of G.

I, the bassist, am playing Phrygian in the key of G, mode III of the major scale. The notes contained therein are G (root), Ab (b2), Bb (b3), C (p4), D (p5), Eb (b6), F (b7) and G (8).

If you are playing Gm as Phyrgian you are in the key of Ebmaj (D#)

I assume that it's generally the thing to play 'C' in the moment when the guitarist changes to Cm7, and D# in the moment when he changes to D#m7, and then go back to the root (or hit the octave) in the moment when he switches back to Gm.

Beyond that, I can noodle away? It's not going to sound too sour if he's strumming away uniformly at Gm and out of nowhere I start yanking the F and C (R + 5) real hard on the high strings? At what point would it constitute "straying" or being "out of key"? Or should I just trust my ear? (I've had pros tell me they're jealous of my ear.)

Also, when he's playing Cm7, it looks like if I put my first finger on C and consider it the "root", I suddenly go from Phrygian mode to Aeolian mode. There's a multi-page thread with a rather confusing theory debate that may have something to do with this observation. So when he's playing Cm7, I can start noodling away in C Aeolian until the next chord change? Or ought I not stray too far from G Phrygian?

And then... it looks like G Phrygian corresponds with D# Ionian.

Uhhhh... so if he's strumming away on D#m7, I can noodle away in D# Ionian or I should stick to G Phrygian? Or I can do... both?

Or, how about this... if he's strumming away in D#m7, I could also noodle around in... C Aeolian?

"A whoooole newwwww (confusing) worrrrlllld...."

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by 251

If you are playing Gm as Phyrgian you are in the key of Ebmaj (D#)

Not necessarily. You might well be in G phrygian. It depends on whether G is the tonal center or key note. If it is, you're not in Eb, even if you share the same key signature.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by 251

If you are playing Gm as Phyrgian you are in the key of Ebmaj (D#)

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Not necessarily. You might well be in G phrygian. It depends on whether G is the tonal center or key note. If it is, you're not in Eb, even if you share the same key signature.

Uh oh here we go again!

Let me clear the air a bit at the outset.

Key =/= Key Signature (G Phrygian and Eb major are different keys sharing the same key signature). The concept of modal keys is totally valid, verified and certified.

Right behind you, Richard.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by champbassist

Uh oh here we go again!

Let me clear the air a bit at the outset.

Key =/= Key Signature (G Phrygian and Eb major are different keys sharing the same key signature). The concept of modal keys is totally valid, verified and certified.

Right behind you, Richard.

[251]

In truth I am lazy & will run to the KISS answer 1st. If I need to solo a chorus & want to instantly identify the keep away notes;

enharmonic=enharmonic=enharminc

A key by any other name could be L#. 8-)

[Toronto Bassist]

I'm pretty sure KISS never solos like that.

[JTE]

It still comes down to knowing what notes are in the chords so you can choose the correct mode (or scale, how ever you frame the reference). When Toronto Bassist says "C Aeolian would sound pretty terrible with D#m7. The C, D, F, and G would clash pretty badly..." it's based on the chord tones. So the FIRST thing to do in my opinion is to KNOW the chords!

So, your progression is Gm Cm7 D#m7. Do you KNOW the chords? In this context "know" means at a minimum that you know what notes are in each chord and how they relate to each other. So, for Gm you need to KNOW that it's G, Bb, and D and that G is the root, Bb is the flatted third (that's why it's a minor) and the D is the fifth. Same for the Cmin7, except you also need to know that Bb is the b7. And the D#min7 notes are??? (An exercise for the student)..

Well by golly let's also talk about WHY it should be Ebmin7. See, knowing the notes in the other two chords tells you that you're using flats instead of sharps. If you're trying to hang the three chords together as a real progression and not just three random noises then you're going to want to tie them together with the notes. Yeah, D#min7 (D# F# A# C#- 1, b3, 5, and b7 of the D# scale) has the same notes as Ebmin7 (Eb, Gb, Bb, Db, again 1, b3, 5 and b7 of the Eb scale). BUT, your other two chords use flats- including the same Bb and Eb in this chord. So the goal is to keep consistency.

And you can just "noodle", but look for ways to make music by hearing things in your head first. Instead of having accidents of modes, have a plan.

John