Chord progression question

fonnet · #1 11-17-2010, 03:39 AM

Hi everybody,

I can't figure out what is the "meaning" of the chord progression in "Everytime you go away" from Hall & Oats (or the Paul Young version). I hope more advanced bassists could help me on this.

The song is in F.
The intro is F, Bb, Bb, C so I, IV, IV, V, simple.
The verse is F, Am, Bb, C so I, IIIm, IV, V, simple too
The bridge is Dm, A, Bb, B°... here I have my question
The chorus is F, Dm, Gm, C, so I, VIm, IIm, V, simple

In the bridge, I assume it goes to the relative minor key and we have a Im, V, VI but with the B° (I hear it like that but I'm open to any confirmation! It's Bmb5 sure, but is the 7th flat or not...), I can hear that it resolves on F but I don't understand why!
I think of it as a chord that resolves on the note C which is the 5th of F but it seems pretty weak for a resolution. I would understand a resolution on the C chord (B° being a G7b9 without root or Bm7b5 if I'm mistaken about the 7th being a G9...) but on the F??? Help!

I take any explanation that you could have guys! I reach my limit on this one (and on many others as I'm not so confident with harmony).

Regards.

MalcolmAmos · #2 11-17-2010, 05:26 AM

The bridge is Dm, A, Bb, B°... here I have my question
...................vi....iii...IV. then to Bdim to F

Diminished chords lead to....... I'd chalk this one up to the songwriter used the Bdim as a lead into the chorus because he liked the way it sounded.

I'm sure others will have something to add.

fonnet · #3 11-17-2010, 05:55 AM

Thanks for your input but it's an A major in the bridge so not a iii in F but a V in the relative minor mode D minor. I sure feel too that the B° fits perfectly but I just would like to understand more about it in order to maybe be able to reuse it in another context.

Rusty the Scoob · #4 11-17-2010, 08:26 AM

I haven't heard the song in question, but here are my thoughts based on your description.

If the Dm and AM were reversed I'd say the AM is a Secondary Dominant - a chord which is altered in order to function as a dominant that leads to a chord other than the tonic. In fact I think it could still be that, especially if the A7 with the G on top works there.

As far as the Bdim, it's pretty common for songwriters especially in jazz to play the IV, keep all the notes the same, and raise the root one step to create a #iv-dim. See the A section of the commonly reused changes to I Got Rhythm for an example. They also do tend not to lead up to the V even though that is the logical next chord. Dimished chords give you a lot of flexibility.

fonnet · #5 11-17-2010, 09:38 AM

Thanks Rusty but if A is a secondary subdominant, wouldn't it lead to D(m) or G#(m)? I don't understand the Bb after it if it is a secondary sub.

I understand usually the diminished chord as you describe it, especially in IV-#iv°-V or I/5 progression. So it could be
Dm - A = I - V in the relative minor mode
Bb- B° = IV - #iv° back in F Major and going to I but not I/5?

Just links to the song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAnZ_mTUP1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YiEPGUx4ag (with Pino Palladino at bass)

Rusty the Scoob · #6 11-17-2010, 10:29 AM

After listening, I don't agree that it ever fully modulates away from F major. Dm is just the vi, and the Dm-Bb relationship (even with the A chord in the middle) echoes the Am-F relationship in the verses, hinting at but not fully executing a modulation to Bb, an extremely common technique for bridges in pop music.

The relative minor is D minor and I really don't hear that ever being used as a tonal center. It's the first chord of that bridge section but really not a resting point.

I also hear an Am where you're hearing A major, but I don't have a bass handy to verify. Regardless, that can be seen as either the iii of F or the vii of Bb - even though that should be dimished if we were truly in Bb, another reasn why I don't agree that the song ever really modulates. I'd look at it as just a passing chord up to a temporary resting spot of Bb. vi iii IV, #ivdim

fonnet · #7 11-17-2010, 10:56 AM

Thanks for your answer Rusty! I'll look at this this way tonight.

I checked the A, it's major with a 7, there is a very distinct note C#. So A7. That's why I went on the V for Dm. Otherwise, it's the III7 in F Major and would be here to go to the vi (Dm) no? As it goes to Bb, I assumed it was Im/V7/VI in Dm which seems very usual. Maybe the VI in Dm/IV in F is the crossover point? I hear a very dramatic minor feel on the Dm, especially followed by the A7 with the slide on Paul Young version from E,G to C#,E on the top string when the A7 is played.

I take any other input, it's so interesting!

Stick_Player · #8 11-17-2010, 11:32 AM

The BRIDGE is definitely in D Minor. Well, sort of.

D Minor: Dm | A⁷ | B♭ | Bº⁷ ||

The last chord is a Full Diminished Seventh ( B, D, F, A♭). Doesn't naturally exist in D Minor (nor F Major). It does in C Harmonic Minor, though. (???)

Now, how is this chord analyzed and labeled?

Perhaps, in D Minor: || i | V⁷ | VI | #viº⁷ ||

The notes A♭ and B (in the Bº⁷ chord) resolve UP. In fact the A♭ behaves more like G#.

But... the sung melody (over the Bº⁷) is A♭, G, F, F, D (everything going...).

Ambiguous harmonies like this, that indeed work, I leave unlabeled.

fonnet · #9 11-17-2010, 11:42 AM

Thanks StickPlayer,

The puzzling B° continues his mystery trip

!

JimmyM · #10 11-17-2010, 11:52 AM

i agree...Ab with the B dim. it's all about context, and in that context, the Ab just works.

Chrisk-K · #11 11-17-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

I can hear that it resolves on F but I don't understand why!
I think of it as a chord that resolves on the note C which is the 5th of F but it seems pretty weak for a resolution

In fact, the last bridge chord is F/C. It creates tension.

Now try to analyze the chord structure of a song like Maxine by Donald Fagen! The song contains chords like C5#/D, Bb13-5/E, G5#b7, etc.

Stick_Player · #12 11-17-2010, 12:51 PM

Quote:

In fact, the last bridge chord is F/C.

I'm not hearing that.

The the section in question is four measures. The Bº⁷ is the last chord. It resolves to an F (with F in the bass) to return to the verse.

A resolution to F/C works. And I've heard that used before. But not here.

Quote:

Now try to analyze the chord structure of a song like Maxine by Donald Fagen! The song contains chords like C5#/D, Bb13-5/E, G5#b7, etc.

Post the chords and I'll give it a try.

Chris K · #13 11-17-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisk-K

In fact, the last bridge chord is F/C. It creates tension.

Now try to analyze the chord structure of a song like Maxine by Donald Fagen! The song contains chords like C5#/D, Bb13-5/E, G5#b7, etc.

And why not?
It's just like Jimmy M says: they work.

When I write my own stuff (I'm not saying it's any good, but some appreciation from audiences has been the case) I write everything in standard music notation without bothering about chords. I only write notes that sound good together - ain't that what music is all about?
Only after that, I start to add chord symbols to comfort my guitarist (my keyboard player just plays what is written), that could well turn out to be something like Bb13-5/E.

Or, in short, no offense meant, chord symbols are only a less sophisticated way to write music...

devine · #14 11-17-2010, 01:04 PM

OK here's my take on it...

Dm - relative minor of F major (the home key).
A7 - The iii chord converted to a dominant (secondry dominant).
Bb - iv chord
G7b9/B - The B played by the bass is the third of the implied chord... they've done this to get the chromatic route movement... A,Bb,B.

The G7b9/B is a ii chord functioning as a secondry dominant.

Hope that helps.

Easy.

Scott.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com

http://www.scottdevinemusic.com

fonnet · #15 11-17-2010, 01:35 PM

Thanks you all!

Scott, I follow you for B° being G7b9/B and the chromatic line at the bass but I still don't see its secondary dominant role as it is followed by an F chord

.

Rusty the Scoob · #16 11-17-2010, 01:53 PM

There's a slight pause there that implies the V IMHO.

JimmyM · #17 11-17-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonnet

Thanks you all!

Scott, I follow you for B° being G7b9/B and the chromatic line at the bass but I still don't see its secondary dominant role as it is followed by an F chord

.

and this is where i split from the pack. i couldn't care less about any of that stuff. i'm big on educating yourself but there's a reason the first 4 letters of "analysis" is "a-n-a-l." i'd just play the B dim and forget about it.

devine · #18 11-17-2010, 02:03 PM

No worries man. Basically a secondary dominant doesn't have to follow the V - I movement. A dominant ii chord is a common substitution used by composers just to add something a little diffferent than the regular V - I. So in this case instead of C7 to F we've got G7b9 to F.

Any more questions give me a shout

Easy,

Scott.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com

http://www.scottdevinemusic.com

bobknowsbass · #19 11-17-2010, 02:06 PM

The way I see it is a couple of leading tones resolving to chord tones.
B->up a half step to C
Ab->up a half step to A
F---F
It resolves in an interesting way to F.

greenboy · #20 11-17-2010, 02:08 PM

Yeah. I used to watch people arguing about what the root was of some diminished chord when they four possible choices before the bass player might substitute something else below it anyway. Yeah, functional western harmony has all this useful analysis going on, but amazing how far beyond it a good jazz trio/quartet can go without half thinking about it.