Chord Questions

[bassistpatrick]

I need help understanding extended chords better.

First, Why does a minor sixth chord have a Major sixth instead of a minor sixth? A minor sixth chord built of the 3rd and 6th degree of the major scale would have a minor sixth. Im guessing the minor sixth would clash with the perfect fifth, am I right? I have the same question for minor 9th and minor 13th chords.

Second, I've seen 13th chords shown with and w/o the 11th. Which is correct?

are there any books that explain how extended chords are constructed?

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

An m6 chord is actually a half-diminished chord in inversion:

Am6 = A - C - E - F# (major sixth)

F# half-diminished: F# - A - C - E

If an m6 chord had a minor sixth, we would have (using the same example) A - C - E - F, which equals a major chord with a major seventh in inversion: F - A - C - E

The thing is, both possibilities (major and minor sixth) create an ambiguity about the real root of the chord but in the second case (with a minor sixth), being a major chord built around a degree (VI) of the natural minor scale, that quality "steals" the supposed root (A) since this is a much stronger-sounding chord => F becomes the real root. Using a major sixth, the created half-diminished chord is much more ambiguous and obscure-sounding, and the sixth degree of the melodic minor scale (F# for this example) isn't enough to lessen the root quality of the A note.

As for your second question, I can only tell that I've seen/heard 13th chords with and without the 11th and both work fine. Actually, what really counts to create that 13th chord sonority is letting the listener know that the 13th note is really that and not the 6th of the chord (both the 6th and the 13th are the same note separated by an octave). The best way to accomplish that is making the 7th to sound below the 13th (respecting the overtones' order): G - F - B - E (lowest to highest) are enough to create a cool-sounding 13th effect without using the full G13 chord.

[YogSothoth]

Well, from what I understand, a chord is determined major or minor by if the 3rd is minor or major, not any other degree.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by YogSothoth

Well, from what I understand, a chord is determined major or minor by if the 3rd is minor or major, not any other degree.

You're right, but bassistpatrick's question isn't about if a chord is major of minor. He thinks that while a major triad with an added sixth is I-III-V-VI, a minor triad with an added sixth should be I-iii-V-vi. It isn't like that. If you want to add a sixth to a triad, it should be a major sixth for both major and minor chords. Hence, a minor triad with an added sixth is spelled I-iii-V-VI.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by bassistpatrick

I need help understanding extended chords better.

First, Why does a minor sixth chord have a Major sixth instead of a minor sixth?

Because "6" in a chord symbol always means a major sixth.

Where you would have a minor 6th in a chord, it would be denoted "b6"

I have the same question for minor 9th and minor 13th chords.

Same thing. "9" always denotes major 9ths, "b9" always denotes minor 9ths.

A chord is called "minor" only by virtue of the basic triad.

Extensions in chords always follow the pattern set by the dominant chord.

Second, I've seen 13th chords shown with and w/o the 11th. Which is correct?

Both.

Theoretically, a 13th chord contains a root, third, fifth, seventh, ninth, eleventh and a thirteenth. It's common practice, however, to ditch the 5th, 9th and 11th, retaining just the root, third, seventh and thirteenth.

Eleventh chords are commonly voiced root, seventh, ninth and eleventh, even if they're supposed to also have a third and fifth.

It's partly to do with avoiding clashes, partly to do with keeping the chord from being too dense.

[Red Wonder]

But of course, as bassists, we arpeggiate, hence we can utilize all the chord tones, so the rules of "ditching" are less so for us correct?

[dlloyd]

Sure.

Moreover, as bassists, we would tend to avoid the upper extensions... treat 13th chords as 7ths, etc.

[Red Wonder]

Could you elaborate a little further dlloyd? Manipulating the extensions adds a little spice and depth to basslines doesn't it. I utilize a lot of extensions (especially the 9, b9 and the #11) and I surely wouldn't want to overdo it in a given situation.

I'd like to learn how to incorporate the 13 tastefully but it seems I'm stuck in a rut of always using it in conjunction with the 11 and 9 instead of independently. Is using the 13 as the relative minor generally a no-no as well? I feel the mix of registers in my playing differentiates me from the other players here who tend for the most part to stay in first or second position. First position for a measure or half-measure coupled with notes from 12th position and up towards the bridge.

[dlloyd]

I'm really talking about avoiding emphasising them on strong beats...

I don't know how much this is a personal thing, but I feel that straying too far into upper extensions runs contrary to the role the bassist has in defining the harmony. When the bass emphasises 13ths, the overall chord is forced into a sixth inversion. Which to me sounds pretty ungainly, but maybe my ears are at fault.

Upper extensions are usually found on the dominant chord as they add tension that begs for resolution.

[steveb98]

Minor harmony tends to draw from Melodic and Harmonic minor not the Natural minor scale. The eleventh is typically left out of 13th chords to avoid clashes with the 3rd of the chord. Also depending on how the chord is voiced can start sounding like Sus chord. When the 11th is used it is usually sharped in Major chord C Ma13 +11. In minor the regular 11th is used in Minor chords since the third is a whole step down. Dominant chords if the 11th is used it will be called a 11th chord and no 13th. This comes from common usage more than formal rules.

Also even in soloing the 11th of a scale many times will become a "Avoid Note" or note for special handling. For example when soloing over a C Ma7 the C Major scale is commonly used it is tecnnically right, but play the F on a strong beat it sound wrong because it clashes with the 3rd. So soloist will avoid the F, play a #11 (Lydian), or play it on a weak beat. The ear will accept about anything on the weak beat.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by steveb98

Also even in soloing the 11th of a scale many times will become a "Avoid Note" or note for special handling. For example when soloing over a C Ma7 the C Major scale is commonly used it is tecnnically right, but play the F on a strong beat it sound wrong because it clashes with the 3rd. So soloist will avoid the F, play a #11 (Lydian), or play it on a weak beat. The ear will accept about anything on the weak beat.

True.

And another reason to avoid chord extentions on strong beats is that the function of the chord can be changed. For instance, a C6 chord with the 6th (A) in the bass becomes a Am7. That's not such a big deal if you are soloing, but in a bassline on a strong beat, that could be a big deal (especially if you're in the key of C).

[Red Wonder]

Thanks guys you helped me a lot on this one.

The unwritten rule of 'the ear will accept any note on a weak beat' takes on new significance in a time signature such as 12/8 or a meter that obviously has more beats than say 4/4 or 3/4? If so, this changes everything in regards to my approach!

I've always been kind of diatonically mired down and now a door has opened up that involves relying less on chromaticism and more on yanking notes from the upper register.

As far as using the higher positions, I play in a setting that is sans guitar and keys, just bass, congas, and drums. I guess I'm feeling the need to add higher pitches and I'm really able to practice my extensions in this setting. I play with really high action so it's possible to get a jazz guitar sound with the slides and ensuing hammer-ons etc. I really enjoy playing in a unit that has no guitar It gives me the practice of holding down the melody and rhythm.

I know a lot of purists want to stay in the lower register. If I was playing with a lot of other musicians in a super formal setting that's where I'd play.

[BassChuck]

While it would seem at though 12/8 has more beats it in, that is rarely the case. Most of the time 12/8 implies that there is a sub-division of each beat (in this case four) into triplets. Much of the good ole rock and roll from the the 50's uses this kind of time signature and feel. There are tons of examples but for some silly reason I'm think of Etta James version of "At Last" where there are clearly 4 pulses in a measure, but each of those beats has three smaller pulses. So there is still the same number of strong and weak beats in a measure.

9/8 would be the same concept but applied to 3/4 time.

[Red Wonder]

Playing the 9 (Mpentatonic) over the I chord I've realized is pretty fun. Could you guys explain the reason this sounds so pleasing? Because the II would be a ii, yet the Major pentatonic, at least to me, sounds better than the minor one over the 9.

[dlloyd]

Not sure what you're asking.

Major pentatonic over the I chord, without any other context, you're essentially playing a 6/9 chord, which is indeed a nice sound.

I don't know what that should have to do with the ii chord, though.

[Red Wonder]

For instance playing a (9) Major pentatonic over the I. This is playing a D Major pentatonic scale an octave above the I (CMaj.). It sounds really lush and vibrant as opposed to the minor. I was just wandering why that was so when theory dictates that the second scale degree of a Major key is ii (minor) and thus would require a dorian mode or a minor pentatonic.

[joroched]

I have an excellent book on cord construction in adobe that I could compress to e-mail. It will answer a lot of this, but I think that part of the confusion is based on what mode the cord progression falls on is what determines the intervils.

[dlloyd]

If you play D major pentatonic over a C major chord, what was originally the 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 with a D root, becomes the 9, 3, #4, 6 and 7 with a C root. You're playing in the Lydian mode.

Here's a fretboard diagram, showing the major pentatonic, with the additional notes that make up the Lydian mode marked in red:

|---|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

[Red Wonder]

So that +11 is just enough of a curveball to make it interesting?

[All_¥our_Bass]

m6 chord = minor chord + major 6
mb6 chord = minor chord + minor 6