chord/scale question

MartinH · #1 12-03-2008, 02:29 AM

I want to know more about chords and scales so I thougt pick a song and analyze it. The sequence is G F C G, Em F G D. I thougt this is simple, it is in the key of C. But then came the D chord. It sounds good, but how can it fit in? The third of the D chord is F#, which is not in the C scale. D(ii) in the key of C would be Dm. How does theory apply here?

Arpeggiator · #2 12-03-2008, 02:49 AM

Very few popular music chord sequences will abide by scales to the letter, its in the key of C. key signetures are often just for the convenience of people reading sheet music i mean you could put it in G major. but i feel there is no reason to .

BassChuck · #3 12-03-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arpeggiator

Very few popular music chord sequences will abide by scales to the letter, its in the key of C. key signetures are often just for the convenience of people reading sheet music i mean you could put it in G major. but i feel there is no reason to .

Amen to that. Yea, it could be in G, but there are just as many 'differences'.

But to answer your question. (I dont' know what this song is, but I looks like, from what you've written, the last four chords could be a bridge or a "B" section) The D chord moves back to the G a bit nicer than Dm would.... making the idea of thinking of this progression in "G". (but then you have that pesky "F" chord!).

Try the progession with a D7 at the end and perhaps a G7 at the begining. It won't change that much, but it might add a little color and move things along better.

Try to get away from thinking 'in keys' and think more in 'collection of notes'. This song is the same collection of notes as C major, but with a F# also.

If you were to do the Blues in C you'd probably use a Bb in the last chord before the bridge. Most 50's R+R uses (in the key of C) a Bb to get to the bridge and an F# near the end of the bridge to get back to the head.

Listen to some Beatle songs and try to figure the 'key' of them (and don't mean Sgt. Pepper, I mean the first few albums). "It Won't Be Long" is probably in E, but there are a good number of C chords... and a A# (Bb) chord in the place where you'd expect a B7. The last four chords are a real dissapointment if you expect them to stay in the key... but they sound fantastic.

I don't know Metal very well. What do you Metal players think about keys?

slybass3000 · #4 12-03-2008, 05:21 AM

Chords should fit the melody,so,if the melody goes on a F# it is normal to put a D as the harmony. It actually borrows the new accidental from a neibor key.

SB

mutedeity · #5 12-03-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Chords should fit the melody,so,if the melody goes on a F# it is normal to put a D as the harmony. It actually borrows the new accidental from a neibor key.

SB

According to whom? Chord progressions are mostly to do with voice leading. Actually I would be willing to bet that the real function of the Dmaj chord is as a secondary dominant.

If you are looking at it as being in the key of C then a II chord would imply a II7 resolving to the V. A common enough thing in both blues and jazz actually. It's also the circle of 5ths being used for more than just a way to read key signatures.

All this stuff about "borrowing accidentals" from another key is pretty inaccurate in my opinion though.

Richard Lindsey · #6 12-03-2008, 07:01 AM

It's hard to say for sure without hearing it, but it's possible that for practical purposes, most of that progression would be most usefully thought of as being not in C major, but rather in G mixolydian, with a shift to G major for the last chord (D). A fair amount of popular music actually works this way.

OP, play that progression and see if it wants to "land" on G. If it does, then what's going is probably best understood as being some flavor of G. it wouldn't be useful, or even accurate, to think of it as C if C is not working as the tonal center.

mambo4 · #7 12-03-2008, 08:55 AM

Most of the above seems appropriate to me. A lot of pop songs will change keys going form one section to another, or they'll ignore the 'natural' harmony of a chord and play the ii as a II (or vi as VI etc) -especially when you're looking at "folk guitar" chords like C,G,D,F...happens all the time.

since the whole phrase looks like it loops back around to G from D, I'm tempted to think D = V and G = I, while F is an 'accidental' bVII thrown in for a rockin bluesy feel.

The actual vocal melody will reveal much. one thing to do would be to scrutinize the melody and determine what key it implies by itself.

DocBop · #8 12-03-2008, 10:04 AM

One way to look at it is Modal Interchange the D is borrowed from C Lydian. To me it's an easy way to explain an isolated non-key chord than a key change. Modal Interchange and Parallel Keys are used a lot in modern tunes.

Richard Lindsey · #9 12-03-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

One way to look at it is Modal Interchange the D is borrowed from C Lydian. To me it's an easy way to explain an isolated non-key chord than a key change. Modal Interchange and Parallel Keys are used a lot in modern tunes.

True enough, but I'm not sure it's really in C at all. I've played a lot of songs like this one where the G would clearly be the tonal/modal center. In which case, it would be best explained by reference to G.

With only what the OP supplied, it's hard to be sure either way about this particular case, though.

DocBop · #10 12-03-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

True enough, but I'm not sure it's really in C at all. I've played a lot of songs like this one where the G would clearly be the tonal/modal center. In which case, it would be best explained by reference to G.

With only what the OP supplied, it's hard to be sure either way about this particular case, though.

I agree if there was a dominant somewhere in there that is best indicator for me to establish key. Without one have to look at whatever CoF movement there is.

mutedeity · #11 12-03-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

One way to look at it is Modal Interchange the D is borrowed from C Lydian. To me it's an easy way to explain an isolated non-key chord than a key change. Modal Interchange and Parallel Keys are used a lot in modern tunes.

This is true enough. The only problem I have with that is that you can say that it's borrowed from any given relative mode if you want to, depending on your perspective. The way I see it though, that doesn't go to explaining function.

I just think that you are far better served to think of that chord as implying a secondary dominant that resolves back to the G. It's a much simpler assumption to make than to have to justify it all as "borrowing" tones from other "keys".

EADG mx · #12 12-03-2008, 06:28 PM

What comes after the D chord? Likely a secondary dominant

and just to throw this out there, there's always the off chance the composer put in a D maj chord just because they wanted a D maj chord.

mutedeity · #13 12-03-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EADG mx

What comes after the D chord? Likely a secondary dominant

and just to throw this out there, there's always the off chance the composer put in a D maj chord just because they wanted a D maj chord.

That's a point. I think though, even if the composer did have no intention of giving the chord a dominant function it would still be implied given the context of its use.

MartinH · #14 12-04-2008, 01:03 AM

Thanks for your response. Here you can find a part of the song: http://www.bol.com/nl/p/muziek/naar-...product_images
It's the 4th song, Laat me slapen (=Dutch for Let me sleep). I hope this will help.

Richard Lindsey · #15 12-04-2008, 07:07 AM

Well, on listening to it, it seems pretty clear that it's not in C in any meaningful sense. C is definitely not the tonal center. So it's either a mixture of G mixo and G major, or G major with the occasional bVII thrown in (perhaps in part to act as a IV of IV?). That is, G is the tonal center, and D is the V.

onlyclave · #16 12-04-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Well, on listening to it, it seems pretty clear that it's not in C in any meaningful sense. C is definitely not the tonal center. So it's either a mixture of G mixo and G major, or G major with the occasional bVII thrown in (perhaps in part to act as a IV of IV?). That is, G is the tonal center, and D is the V.

I'd analyze the F as Subtonic VII borrowed from parallel minor. Can't have a IV/IV because IV isn't a dominant chord.

Whatever it is, the song is definitely in G and that D major chord just screams V, 5, Five!

edit: Actually that F feels like a N6 of something...

Richard Lindsey · #17 12-04-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyclave

I'd analyze the F as Subtonic VII borrowed from parallel minor. Can't have a IV/IV because IV isn't a dominant chord.

Why not? Secondary subdominants exist, of various types. After all, subdominants are used in cadences (i.e., the plagal cadence), and are second in strength to dominants when used that way. I know of no law saying that only dominants can be secondary chords. Theory follows practice. I can even imagine a case where you could plausibly analyze a chord as a ii of a IV--for instance, in a progression like G G G Dm7 C C Am7 D7, you could think of the Dm7 (the v7) as acting as a ii7 of the IV. Though of course one might not bother. If a secondary subdominant is at least possible, then a secondary supertonic is conceivable, since the ii has some subdominant function (by some theoretical reckonings, anyway).

I suppose you could also call it some kind of modal interchange, though I agree with mutedeity that this might not explain very much.

onlyclave · #18 12-04-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Why not? Secondary subdominants exist, of various types. After all, subdominants are used in cadences (i.e., the plagal cadence), and are second in strength to dominants when used that way. I know of no law saying that only dominants can be secondary chords.

If you're finding secondary subdominants you have modulated. In C maj: V = G major which resolves to I, V/V = D major which resolves to V, IV/V is C major which resolves (or can't resolve) to C, IV/vi is D major (again) which is actually V/V.

A plagal cadence occurs at the end of the consequent melodic phrase, not just arbitrarily within a chord progression.

Richard Lindsey · #19 12-04-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyclave

If you're finding secondary subdominants you have modulated. In C maj: V = G major which resolves to I, V/V = D major which resolves to V, IV/V is C major which resolves (or can't resolve) to C, IV/vi is D major (again) which is actually V/V.

A plagal cadence occurs at the end of the consequent melodic phrase, not just arbitrarily within a chord progression.

Well, I don't agree that a secondary subdominant presumes a modulation, but that's OK, people of good will can disagree, and no animals or children are harmed thereby.

I know a cadence occurs at the end of a melodic phrase and not arbitrarily. I wasn't saying the example was a cadence, any more than every V-I is a cadence. My point was simply that IV to I--or even perhaps IV-of-IV to IV--is a strong chordal movement and is commonly heard as such. It's used as a cadence because it's a strong movement; it's not a strong movement because it's used as a cadence.