Chord/Theory/Nomenclature question

[Michael Campbel]

In another thread a submitter wrote:

The "Augmented 2nd" doesn't function the same as a "Minor 3rd" - even though they are both an interval of a step and a half and on their own, sound the same.

I don't have enough background to FULLY understand this, but my question is more on the nomenclature; specifically the "function as" part.

What does it mean for a chord to (or not to, as the case would be), "function as" something?

Thanks

[MalcolmAmos]

I think this will answer your question.
The 3rd interval decides if a chord is major or minor. R-1-3-5 is major, R-b3-5 is minor. So change the 3 to a b3 and the chord now functions as a minor chord.

The lowered 5th interval along with the b3 makes a chord diminished. Flatten the 3rd and the 5th and the chord now functions as a diminished chord.

The raised 5th interval will make the chord augmented. So sharping the 5th will make the chord function as an augmented chord.

Omitting the 3rd and substituting a 2, R-2-5 and you have a sus2 chord - normally written just sus. Doing this same thing but now R-4-5 is a sus4. Omitting the 3rd interval and substituting a 2 or 4 will change the chord and it will now function as a sus2 or sus4 chord.

Then we get into the I chord functioning as the tonic chord.
The ii and IV function as the sub-dominant chord.
The V and Viidim function as the dominant chords. The viidim also functions as the minor leading tone diminished chord.
The iii chord functions as the minor mediant chord.
The vi chord functions as the relative minor chord.

And I'm sure there are other "things" that make a note or chord function as something.

But first is this what you are talking about?

[Stick_Player]

I'm the "submitter" of that statement.

VERY BASICALLY, the function refers to how it is used, how it relates or it's dependence on previous/following harmonies or pitches.

I'll stick with ONLY the INTERVALS of the "Minor 3rd" and "Augmented 2nd" - which BOTH contain an interval of a step and a half. And on their own, sound the same.

The interval of a "Minor 3rd" exists in all kinds of scales. The "Augmented 2nd" much less.

A few examples of the "Minor 3rd" interval are quickly found in a Major Scale. Using everybody's favorite scale - C Major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C) - the intervals of D-F and A-C are "Minor 3rd" intervals. As to the function, the top notes of D-F and A-C, want to resolve DOWN to the next scale tone (when used in C Major).

A good example of an "Augmented 2nd" interval can be found in a Harmonic Minor scale - C Harmonic Minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C). The interval of Ab-B is an "Augmented 2nd" interval. As to the function, the top note (B) wants to resolve UP to the next scale tone (when used in C Minor).

These are two examples showing the "same-size interval" functioning differently.

Keep in mind, this is only theory and there are examples of these two intervals NOT doing this.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

I'm the "submitter" of that statement.

VERY BASICALLY, the function refers to how it is used, how it relates or it's dependence on previous/following harmonies or pitches.

I'll stick with ONLY the INTERVALS of the "Minor 3rd" and "Augmented 2nd" - which BOTH contain an interval of a step and a half. And on their own, sound the same.

The interval of a "Minor 3rd" exists in all kinds of scales. The "Augmented 2nd" much less.

A few examples of the "Minor 3rd" interval are quickly found in a Major Scale. Using everybody's favorite scale - C Major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C) - the intervals of D-F and A-C are "Minor 3rd" intervals. As to the function, the top notes of D-F and A-C, want to resolve DOWN to the next scale tone (when used in C Major).

A good example of an "Augmented 2nd" interval can be found in a Harmonic Minor scale - C Harmonic Minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C). The interval of Ab-B is an "Augmented 2nd" interval. As to the function, the top note (B) wants to resolve UP to the next scale tone (when used in C Minor).

These are two examples showing the "same-size interval" functioning differently.

Keep in mind, this is only theory and there are examples of these two intervals NOT doing this.

This is a very interesting explanation on a subject that gets not enough thoughts!

[Billnc]

Another example of function, this is for a specific chord shape. I'll say the notes BFAD which is a Bmi7b5. Odds are a blues player will never play the chord with this function but they use those notes in that order all the time as a G9, B is the 3rd of G, F the b7, A the 9, and D the 5th. The guitarist often starts Stormy Monday like this, alone, there is no problem to the ear when a guitarist plays it and the bass comes in later with a G in the bass. The same notes function equally well as a ii for a ii V i in A minor.

This probably sounds as convoluted as half the other explanations on here sometimes feel free to iPhone me if that is the case!

[Chris K]

Notes like 'augmented 2nd' and 'minor 3rd' are enharmonically the same. Why do they have different names?

In a scale we find the intervals 1 to 8, one time each, like 1c 2d 3e 4f 5g 6a 7b 8c. If we choose to change that scale (for whatever reason), we change one or more of the intervals up or down by a semitone. So the name comes from the interval we chose to change. We may decide on either 1c 2d# 3e 4f etc. or 1c 2d 3eb 4f etc.

In chords, we may change notes chromatically also. The rule of thumb there is that, if they need to resolve, augmented notes resolve upward, flattened notes resolve downward. So in the key of C major the d# in the chord g b d# f (G+7 of G7#5) will resolve to e. But the eb in the chord of c eb f# a (Cdim) will resolve to d. The minor 3rd of a minor key however may resolve both ways. These general rules are important to create harmonic bass lines.

[JtheJazzMan]

Chord tones vs extension. /thread

[Michael Campbel]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I think this will answer your question. ...

But first is this what you are talking about?

Yes Malcolm, thanks.

The 3rd interval decides if a chord is major or minor. R-1-3-5 is major, R-b3-5 is minor. So change the 3 to a b3 and the chord now functions as a minor chord.

I think my next question is then, what is the difference between BEING a chord of a certain type and FUNCTIONING as one; or those 2 terms more or less the same?

[Stick_Player]

... my next question is then, what is the difference between BEING a chord of a certain type and FUNCTIONING as one

A few C minor Chord (C, Eb, G) functions:

G7b9 > Cm (V7b9 > i)... The Cm is functioning as the Tonic (key of C Minor).

Eb > Cm > Fm > Bb7 (I > vi > ii > V7)... the Cm is functioning as the vi (key of Eb Major).

Cm > F7 > Bb (ii > V7 > I)... the Cm is functioning as the ii (key of Bb Major).

G > Cm > G (I > iv > I)... the Cm is functioning as the iv (key of G Major).

There are more...

[MalcolmAmos]

my next question is then, what is the difference between BEING a chord of a certain type and FUNCTIONING as one

Basically the same thing. The chord is what it is, how it functions may escape us.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Chord tones vs extension. /thread

...and? That's a simplistic way of looking at it, anyway. Stick_player offered a very easy to understand and comprehensive way of understanding the differences between enharmonic intervals.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Basically the same thing. The chord is what it is, how it functions may escape us.

Not...entirely, but almost. This is where jargon get's thrown around a lot and sometimes people get confused.

A given C major 7 chord is C E G B. That C major 7 could have a number of different functions, be it Imaj7 in the key of C, IVmaj7 in the key of G, bII maj 7 in the key of B, etc. The note B could have the function of a "major 7" on that C major 7 chord, or it could have the function of "9" on an A7 chord, or the function of "#11" on an F major 7 chord.

The function of a particular note/chord is situational. When people say, "that chord is a V7 chord," they mean that the chord - within that particular context - has the function of a V7.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

I'm the "submitter" of that statement.

VERY BASICALLY, the function refers to how it is used, how it relates or it's dependence on previous/following harmonies or pitches.

I'll stick with ONLY the INTERVALS of the "Minor 3rd" and "Augmented 2nd" - which BOTH contain an interval of a step and a half. And on their own, sound the same.

The interval of a "Minor 3rd" exists in all kinds of scales. The "Augmented 2nd" much less.

A few examples of the "Minor 3rd" interval are quickly found in a Major Scale. Using everybody's favorite scale - C Major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C) - the intervals of D-F and A-C are "Minor 3rd" intervals. As to the function, the top notes of D-F and A-C, want to resolve DOWN to the next scale tone (when used in C Major).

A good example of an "Augmented 2nd" interval can be found in a Harmonic Minor scale - C Harmonic Minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C). The interval of Ab-B is an "Augmented 2nd" interval. As to the function, the top note (B) wants to resolve UP to the next scale tone (when used in C Minor).

These are two examples showing the "same-size interval" functioning differently.

Keep in mind, this is only theory and there are examples of these two intervals NOT doing this.

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Not...entirely, but almost. This is where jargon get's thrown around a lot and sometimes people get confused.

A given C major 7 chord is C E G B. That C major 7 could have a number of different functions, be it Imaj7 in the key of C, IVmaj7 in the key of G, bII maj 7 in the key of B, etc. The note B could have the function of a "major 7" on that C major 7 chord, or it could have the function of "9" on an A7 chord, or the function of "#11" on an F major 7 chord.

The function of a particular note/chord is situational. When people say, "that chord is a V7 chord," they mean that the chord - within that particular context - has the function of a V7.

NOW... /thread.

[mambo4]

Let's not confuse "chord function" with "chord tone function"

"augmented second" and "minor 3rd" in the context of the OP's question, and most of the responses, are NOT CHORDS themselves. so discussion of "chord function " is a bit out of place.
When a CHORD "functions as" something it is generally in the context of chord progression, and needs to be considered along with the surrounding chords for meaning full discussion.

The aug 2nd and min 3rd in this context are CHORD TONES, CHORD ALTERATIONS or EXTENSIONS. They are functioning as individual notes within a chord.

the Aug 2nd is also exceedingly rare, we more often see a #9. Generally an extension/alteration, it implies that the 3rd is also present.
Where as the minor 3rd is all over the place, and generally a chord tone whose presence is assumed.

[Stick_Player]

Let's not confuse "chord function" with "chord tone function"

I was clear to NOT confuse "chord function" with "chord tone function".

When a CHORD "functions as" something it is generally in the context of chord progression, and needs to be considered along with the surrounding chords for meaning full discussion.

I addressed that: "VERY BASICALLY, the function refers to how it is used, how it relates or it's dependence on previous/following harmonies or pitches."

the Aug 2nd is also exceedingly rare

I addressed that: "The interval of a "Minor 3rd" exists in all kinds of scales. The "Augmented 2nd" much less."

[mambo4]

@ Stick_Player: I wasn't responding to you specifically, and meant no offense. Just a general clarification for any beginners not up on the jargon.

[Stick_Player]

mambo4, understood.

I was trying to keep intervals, in a linear sense, separate from the intervals found in chords. Although a good understanding of both will create good voice-leading, in harmonic progressions.

I'm still having a problem with calling a V7+9 the "Hendrix Chord" or a mix of a major and minor chord of the same root.

[mambo4]

I think the V7#9 evolved in blues and jazz as an attempt to hamronize the "blue note" which technically is between a min 3rd and Maj3rd. But that's only a guess.

[Scootr117]

This is all good stuff. I never got real deep into the study of music other than the basics of music from Jr high and High School band... I seem to end up playing one of four runs with just about everything on our set list (mostly country). What styles of music do these normally apply to?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Scootr117

This is all good stuff. I never got real deep into the study of music other than the basics of music from Jr high and High School band... I seem to end up playing one of four runs with just about everything on our set list (mostly country). What styles of music do these normally apply to?

The thread has moved into jazz. For Country you are probably on the right track already.
Country is 99% Major and a I IV V will cover just about everything you do.

• Root on the 1st beat is normal.
• Your bass line can include; Just roots - changing with the chord change.
• R-5 again changing with the chord changes will work. That R-5 will play a bunch of Country.
• R-5-8 is always safe. R-R-8-8 or any mixture of the R-5-8, i.e. R-5-5-8, etc.
• Chord tones - The notes of the chord are a safe bet - the R, 3, 5 or 7 to match the chords used:
• C = R-3-5- plus something to round out the 4/4 time. You can get as sophisticate on the fourth note as you like. Using the dominant of the next chord is a good way to flow (move) to the next chord.
• Cm = R-b3-5-b3 -- another b3 to call attention to the minor chord.
• Cm7 = R-b3-5-b7 -- The following are all four note chords. Use the correct third and seventh.
• C7 = R-3-5-b7
• Cmaj7 = R-3-5-7
• The 2, 4 and 6 are color intervals experiment and see what you like
• I like R-3-5-6-8-6-5-3 when you have two measures of the same chord. To hear how this works in a chord progression go to http://www.activebass.com/ and ask for Lessons then request lesson 15157 page 1.

Walking chromatic runs to the next chord. It's not exact just walk to the next chord. I've heard it said; "You target the next chord's root - miss it and walk up, or down, to it.
C to F .... D-Eb-E-F
F to G.... E-F-F#-G you can get creative on this run.
G to C... F-E-D-C run back on the 3rd string, and cross over to the 4th for the C.

Country is best left dirt simple calling attention to the roots on beat 1 and laying down a steady beat and groove for the others to follow. Scales in my bass line -- pentatonic perhaps (R-2-3-5-6) IMHO there is not room for 7 note scales if you play them in order - the other guys will be giving you the fish eye. Now echo melody - echoing the vocalist yes - good luck with that - takes a pretty good bassist to pull it off and not compete with the vocalist.

Again IMHO.