Are chords Jazz or is Jazz played over chords?

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


I agree with Ed, when he said on the first page:

"It's not chords and it's not (strictly) improvisation. It's an approach to harmony AND an approach to improvisation that is unique to jazz."

But of course, an "approach to harmony" includes and involves chords/scales - and you can't define that approach, without reference to these!!

Hey Bruce, don't hide behind Ed, (not implying that your big enough to hide behind Ed ). You were gleefully waxing about how it's jazzy because of the reharmonized 12 bar blues form, which of course implied, and rather directly I might add, that the original harmony wasn't jazzy. I debunked this by offering up "Freddie Freeloader" as an example and I never saw you address this, instead you pasted the contents of a web page which you could have just given us the link to.

I do have a problem with Ed's quote though, in no way does it mention RHYTHM, which you can't have Jazz without.

[JimK]

Thanks, Richard-
I was gonna mention rhythm, too.

One can play "jazzy" chords all night long in any context(Rock, Funk, R&B, Reggae, etc).
Without that "rhythm"...I dunno.
I may think, "Hmmmm, that's jazzy" or "Cool, nice voicing", blah.


I thought I had killed this thread back on 9-10?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Phil Smith
I do have a problem with Ed's quote though, in no way does it mention RHYTHM, which you can't have Jazz without.

Well, I have seen a lot of Jazz groups with no rhythm sections and some Jazz slow ballads can move into rubato so far that they might be said to have no "pulse" in both senses of the word!

I did quote Ed verbatim from the first page of this thread - go look if you don't believe me!

But I also believe that it's very difficult to pin down Jazz and I said elsewhere that I think it's easier to say what it isn't rather than what it is!

So to add another twist, I will quote a concrete example - Steely Dan! Now to me, they sound Jazzy or Jazzier when they add some typical Jazz chords and harmony - so some songs are clearly rock and not Jazz - others are blurred into Jazz territory, but overall they are probably closer to rock/funk, but when they throw some Jazz harmony into the mix they sound Jazzier ....?

So - Aja sounds "Jazzier" to me than Reelin in the Years ........?

But are either Jazz as such - probably not!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just a reminder to everyone who might care that there's a complete (merged) version of this thread down in DB OT.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Just a reminder to everyone who might care that there's a complete (merged) version of this thread down in DB OT.

But it doesn't include my last post which was directly replying to a lot of these points! I'm confused!!

Maybe I shouldn't go on holiday(vacation in Kefallonia) !!

[JimK]

Bruce-
Steely Dan is a good example.
Agree with you on "Aja" vs. "Reeling In The Years", too...though look at the personnel on both tunes.
By the time Fagen/Becker got to Aja, they were really into using Jazz-oriented players.
"Reeling In The Years" is from their debut disc, right?

Are really going on holiday, AGAIN?!
Man, where do I sign up?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Just back from my fourth trip since December - Spain, Malta, Wales and Greece - I've got to do something when I'm not on TB!!

Actually, it's to keep my girflriend happy with all the time I spend on bass playing, going to Jazz gigs etc.

[Brad Johnson]

Not as glamorous as hitting the Jersey shore but I guess it'll do

I'm officially jealous, Bruce.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by JimK
Bruce-
Steely Dan is a good example.
Agree with you on "Aja" vs. "Reeling In The Years", too...though look at the personnel on both tunes.
By the time Fagen/Becker got to Aja, they were really into using Jazz-oriented players.
"Reeling In The Years" is from their debut disc, right?

I think you could come up with better examples if you looked through the whole list of Steely Dan songs. So, round about Pretzel logic they started to get more Jazz influences in - although "King of the World" on the previous album sounds Jazzier to me despite having the rock band and some of the other tunes on the album are very simple - like "Show BIz Kids".

So it's probably "Countdown to Ecstasy" that shows what I mean - it's clearly a rock band with rock rhythm section, but some of the songs slip in "Jazzy" chords which make them stand out from the other bands around at the time.

Here's a quote from an interview with Becker/Fagen, that is reproduced in the Citizen Steely Dan box set, Becker starts :

"Peple who are interested in more interesting lyrics are generally speaking not interested in Jazz harmonies. They want something more raw and what they perceive to be subversive-sounding, which usually means clanging guitars. And it was just a quirk of Donald's and my natures that we thought superimposing Jazz harmonies on pop songs was subversive in a much subtler way." Adds Fagen, "I think people who are sophisticated in the sense that they want to hear some kind of substance in the lyrics are musically going to tend to be primitivists...."

[moley]

My 2 cents...

I think Jazz is more than just the chords or the improvisation - I wouldn't agree that Jazz is defined by the chords, but I wouldn't agree that Jazz is defined by the improvisation - but I wouldn't say that both are required for music to be Jazz. I think Jazz also has a lot to do with the player, and the feel they give the music - it's a way of playing music. For example, Herbie Hancock's performance of the 2nd movement of Ravel's Piano Concerto in G on "Gershwin's World" - Herbie makes it Jazz - where as a Classical Pianist wouldn't. It's little things that contribute to the feel, like the accent off the beat.

Continuing the Steely Dan thread, I think one reason Aja sounds so much more Jazzy than Can't Buy A Thrill is the players - Rainey, Shorter etc. Also, on Katy Lied - while songs like Your Gold Teeth 2 are undeniably Jazz influenced, the performance isn't all that Jazzy to me - whereas Aja is also undeniably Jazz influenced, but sounds a lot more like Jazz to me - because of the players.