Chords and Modes

[BrennP90]

I can't seem to find any information on this, but is there a general rule in figuring out which modes can be used with with which chords?
I've been practicing the major scale modes a lot and am wondering how to expand on that.

[Jake of Bass]

Try it the other way around first and see which chord you get for each mode.

eg: Ionian (Major) scale - C D E F G A B

Now from the root take every odd number, ie. 1st, 3rd, 5th + 7th. Together they make Cmaj7

Now try Mixolydian - C D E F G A Bb - you'll end up with C7

Keep going through the rest of the scales. You'll find certain scales have the same chord, such as Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian (minor) all use minor 7th chords, and Locrian use minor 7th (5b), and both Ioanian and Lydian use maj 7th chords, but once you start adding 9ths, 11ths and 13ths they become different.

In saying all this it depends almost entirely on the key signature of the piece you're playing to choose the appropriate scale. If the song was in the key of C and I came across a Dmin7 chord, I'd think Dorian, whereas if there were a Bb and an Eb in the key signature, I'd think D phrygian for the same chord. If it were a standard 12 bar blues and all the chords were dominant 7ths I'd play mixolydian for each chord as chord tone takes precedence over key - if you examine the key of C major but make all chords dom 7ths (C7, F7 and G7) you'll find that with this rule in mind the chords alter the key to becoming all mixolydian anyway, although the minor third can be used to create tension and make it sound more 'blusey'.

[mambo4]

+1 to the above!

a lot of experienced players will encourage you to focus on playing chord tones first, and worry about modes later.
Oh wait, I have a standard cut and paste response here somewhere...hope it helps:
---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics.
Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords.

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever.

[DocBop]

Real basic view.

Major modes = Ionian, Lydian
Minor modes = Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian for minor 7b5 Locrian mode
Dominant mode = Mixolydian for altered dominant Locrian mode

The key is playing these modes against the chords and hearing/learning the notes that give the mode its sound against the chord. To me this is the fun part of playing/recording a chord (or piece of progression) and trying scale(s) out for lines, improv, and composition.

[onlyclave]

The question that never seems to get asked here is Why do you want to know? Rather than posting the same Mixolydian/Phrygian/Circle of 5ths answer that gets on here 22 times a week, what are you working on that requires you asking this question?

Are you working on jazz improvisation? What songs are you working out right now?
Are you composing or arranging music?
Are you writing your own bass lines to other people's songs?

We need more information before blindly posting answers. Clearly that method hasn't answered this question sufficiently in the past otherwise this question wouldn't be asked every day. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

The question that never seems to get asked here is Why do you want to know? Rather than posting the same Mixolydian/Phrygian/Circle of 5ths answer that gets on here 22 times a week, what are you working on that requires you asking this question?

Are you working on jazz improvisation? What songs are you working out right now?
Are you composing or arranging music?
Are you writing your own bass lines to other people's songs?

We need more information before blindly posting answers. Clearly that method hasn't answered this question sufficiently in the past otherwise this question wouldn't be asked every day. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

It's the nature of the medium (web based chat site). Same as all the endless discussions on tonewoods, cheap vs. boutique, Fender vs. Sadowsky, Lakland, etc, maple vs. rosewood...

Newcomers and new to bass will always ask the questions we've heard before. No harm in that.

[JTE]

If you know the chord tones, the scale and/or mode choices are kind of obvioius.

If it's a Cmaj7, then only the F major scale and the C Major scale are going to have those notes. So, it's either C Ionian or F whatever mode has a raised 4th.

If it's G7, then only the C major scale has those four notes- hence it's any mode with C D E F G A B C, so that'd be G mixolydian.

Knowing the chord tones tells you the options, and then you can figure out your options from there pretty quickly.

jte

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by JTE

If you know the chord tones, the scale and/or mode choices are kind of obvioius.

If it's a Cmaj7, then only the F major scale and the C Major scale are going to have those notes. So, it's either C Ionian or F whatever mode has a raised 4th.

If it's G7, then only the C major scale has those four notes- hence it's any mode with C D E F G A B C, so that'd be G mixolydian.

Knowing the chord tones tells you the options, and then you can figure out your options from there pretty quickly.

jte

The question that never seems to get asked here is Why do you want to know? Rather than posting the same Mixolydian/Phrygian/Circle of 5ths answer that gets on here 22 times a week, what are you working on that requires you asking this question?

Are you working on jazz improvisation? What songs are you working out right now?
Are you composing or arranging music?
Are you writing your own bass lines to other people's songs?

We need more information before blindly posting answers. Clearly that method hasn't answered this question sufficiently in the past otherwise this question wouldn't be asked every day. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Thanks for illustrating the point I was trying to make.

[BrennP90]

Thanks for the replies. I would say playing jazz is probably my main goal. Right now I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about theory.

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by mambo4

+1 to the above!

a lot of experienced players will encourage you to focus on playing chord tones first, and worry about modes later.
Oh wait, I have a standard cut and paste response here somewhere...hope it helps:
---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics.
Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords.

Great post. The other 14% you'll be playing off chord tones, and 1% you'll do something completely outside of the chord by mistake then attempt to make it sound really cool somehow...

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever.

Amen to that!

[ryco]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

The question that never seems to get asked here is Why do you want to know?

Methinks it may be mid-terms for first year theory
Seems a lot of these mode/scale/chord/key questions come up in Dec and May

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by BrennP90

Thanks for the replies. I would say playing jazz is probably my main goal. Right now I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about theory.

Then check this out completely:

www.jazzbooks.com

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by BrennP90

is there a general rule in figuring out which modes can be used with with which chords?

Yes - it goes something like :

"If you can make it sound good in context - then you can use it!"

[Bruce Lindfield]

My serious answer would be, read this and work through the examples :

[Correlli]

And my serious answer is:

Chord is a harmony
Mode is a melody

So in popular music, the melody and harmony relate to each very closely eg major harmony - major melody etc

Some people find this style very boring or consonant

I like my melodies and harmonies to clash like hell, create tension, stir up some trouble.

Or sometimes theyr sad and weep with sorrow.

And definitately a horny dog feel

[buddyro57]

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever

I would just ammend that slightly to read

"If music is your thing, then.......

Regarding chord/scale application;a great book to start with is Jerry Coker's Jazz Keyboard (you can find it anywhere- used copies for under 10.00). It is easier to learn some of this stuff sitting at the keyboard.
Good luck- JS

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by BrennP90

I can't seem to find any information on this, but is there a general rule in figuring out which modes can be used with with which chords?
I've been practicing the major scale modes a lot and am wondering how to expand on that.

Don't look for rules the real answer is playing and experimenting and playing more. Use "rules" as source of ideas and starting point for learning then experimenting.

I dig quotes here two I think fit....

Practice is the best of all instructors -- Publilius Syrus

There are no rules, but the ear has expectations.

[Correlli]

copied this from a book years ago, which has since vanished into thin air, or now lives in someone elses bookshelf.

Chord	       Possible Scale
	
C Major	       Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Locrian, Pentatonic Major
C Minor	       Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian, Melodic Minor, 
               Harmonic Minor, Blues, Pentatonic Minor
C Major 6      Ionian, Lydian, Pentatonic Major
C Minor 6      Dorian, Pentatonic Minor, Melodic Minor
C 7	       Mixolydian, Locrian, Pentatonic Major, Blues
C Major 7      Ionian, Lydian, Pentatonic Major
C 7b5	       Whole Tone, Pentatonic Major
C Minor 7      Aeolian, Blues, Dorian
C Minor 7b5    Locrian, Diminished
C 9	       Mixolydian, Pentatonic Major
C Major 9      Ionian, Lydian, Pentatonic Major
C Minor 9      Dorian, Pentatonic Minor
C 11	       Mixolydian, Pentatonic Major
C 13	       Mixolydian, Pentatonic Major
C sus4	       Ionian, Mixolydian
C Diminished   Diminished
C Augmented    Augmented (+5)

[mutedeity]

I think it's high time we had a chords and modes sticky here. Don't the rest of you get tired of answering this same question?

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I think it's high time we had a chords and modes sticky here. Don't the rest of you get tired of answering this same question?

Yes.

+1