Chords and modes (please make me a sticky and save us all)

[mutedeity]

I hope this gets made into a sticky....

Chords and Modes

The diatonic modal system is based on the major scale (Ionian) and based on the interval sequence of [tone tone semitone tone tone tone semitone] If we modulate each interval in the sequence we get the relative modes. From there we can derive the relative tertian triads and tetrads.

So starting with Ionian and giving the interval sequence followed by the degrees;

Ionian [T T ST T T T ST] - {1 2 3 4 5 6 7}
Dorian [T ST T T T ST T] - {1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7}
Phrygian [ST T T T ST T T] - {1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7}
Lydian [T T T ST T T ST] - {1 2 3 #4 5 6 7}
Mixolydian [T T ST T T ST T] - {1 2 3 4 5 6 b7}
Aeolian [T ST T T ST T T] - {1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7}
Locrian [ST T T ST T T T] - {1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7}

From there we can derive the tertian triads and tetrads(7th chords)

mode - triad - 7th chord

Ionian - Maj - Maj7
Dorian - min - min7
Phrygian - min - min7
Lydian - Maj - Maj7
Mixolydian - Maj - 7 (dominant)
Aeolian - min - min7
Locrian - dim - min7(b5) (half diminished)

There is a lot more to how this works than I am going to write here. Your best bet is to get a tutor who is going to explain how it works and how you might use it, but there is the basic premise.

[mutedeity]

Well I tried. Obviously we are supposed to keep typing this stuff otherwise we might run out of things to say.

[Stumbo]

I suggest you post your info here:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/what-bass-better-price-quality-60080-post667518/

Maybe that thread can be made into a stickie

[Earthday]

Good information, but in my opinion anyone who understands all the vocabulary you used to describe it would already know this.

[Dave R]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "blues scale" just dorian?

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "blues scale" just dorian?

You're wrong. The "blues scale" is a synthetic scale invented by academia to explain tendencies in blues performance. It consisted of 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7

Mute, this thread is all well and good, but that's about the least helpful explanation of modes and chords that you could have for a complete newbie. It also gives the wrong impression that chords are derived from the seperate modes.

[winstonthecat]

I am mostly a theory newbie, and while I've picked up a lot from TB, I have to say that using terms like "teritian" and "tetrads" without including defintions will loose most of us newbies.

[Deacon_Blues]

I agree that for the information to be useful, you need to use much simpler terminology or explain it all from the very beginning (which I and several others tried to do in Binnie's "chords" thread: chords)

A sticky on the basic theory questions would be great, but I find it more important to thoroughly explain the major scale in simple terms and how chords are defined before jumping into the modes.

[Jake of Bass]

There are other threads with much more info that should be made sticky...

[Jazz Ad]

All this and much more is already there.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f90/

[Jake of Bass]

Very good point.

Also, rather than starting a new thread with very little content, how about adding to an existing thread with a lot of content the appeal for a sticky? Just seems a lot more logical to me.

[Dave R]

You're wrong. The "blues scale" is a synthetic scale invented by academia to explain tendencies in blues performance. It consisted of 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7

So the difference between blues scale and dorian is the flatted 5th? I probably never noticed it because I never see the flatted 5th in the bass.

One thing I like about the blues is that the 3rd could be either flatted or major, depending on context, and the 7th could be, too. That's where a lot of the expressiveness comes from.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Dave R

So the difference between blues scale and dorian is the flatted 5th? I probably never noticed it because I never see the flatted 5th in the bass.

One thing I like about the blues is that the 3rd could be either flatted or major, depending on context, and the 7th could be, too. That's where a lot of the expressiveness comes from.

The "blue notes" in the blues scale are microtonally variable. Since the blues was an aural tradition there wasn't really a way to write it out. As Havic5 pointed out above, some musicologist created the blues scale so it could be "analyzed" and written about by people who weren't part of the blues tradition.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by Dave R

So the difference between blues scale and dorian is the flatted 5th? I probably never noticed it because I never see the flatted 5th in the bass.

The difference between the blues scale and the Dorian mode is:

Dorian mode scale = R M2 m3 P4 P5 M6 m7

Blues scale = R m3 P4 [A4/d5] P5 m7 -- it has a Perfect 5th and flatted 5th. Basically a minor pentatonic with an added diminished fifth.

Blues scale doesn't contain the M6 which is the characteristic of Dorian mode; "natural minor scale with a raised 6th."
Also doesn't contain a 2nd degree

[AlphaMale]

worrrd

[greenboy]

Dang, give me 20 or so blues songs and I swear my blues scale has every chromatic in it. Well, the M7 gets short shrift, but I'm definitely using m2 and M2 and M3 and m6 and M6 in the course of a night. Some of those are strong-beat double stops an so on...

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Dang, give me 20 or so blues songs and I swear my blues scale has every chromatic in it. Well, the M7 gets short shrift, but I'm definitely using m2 and M2 and M3 and m6 and M6 in the course of a night. Some of those are strong-beat double stops an so on...

Right, which is why I think reducing the blues scale down to 5 notes is simplistic. As a pedagogical tool, it might work with somebody who knows what they're doing as a framework, but otherwise, it's a convenience.

[greenboy]

Yep.

Even on bass let alone upper instruments, the blues within its supposedly simple beginnings has so many [usually] dom 7th grouped turnarounds and changes that we don't normally consider a moving of the key center or as substitutions, and it's not that hard to momentarily be part of a bandwide stacked chord polytonal vibe using notes outside the so-called blues scale, a lot of this comes admittedly from walking's passing and chromaticicms.

But everybody has to start somewhere, and a simple blues scale would seem to be that...

[Dave R]

I have a minor in music. But....

What?


( I think you said, in the blues, anything goes...)

[Deacon_Blues]

The blues and dorian scales are like ryco explained. However, in blues virtually any note can be used effectively. I especially like to use the M6 and M3 (solos and basslines). The m2 gets used a lot in basslines to lead into the root.

Remember that you should play M3's in blues bass lines (esp. walking), unless you're actually playing a blues in minor. I.e, follow the chords. The blues scale is more a "feel thing", used for soloing and melodies, and not very useful for bass lines.