chords of modes question

[dalconthenovice]

so i was working through my modes and started playing the chords to the modes and i noticed something odd

while working through the chords of the modes of the major scale i noticed that the 3rd chord is minor in the major scale

but iw as told the 3rd is what makes the major quality like the root mode uses the 3rd to determine that is is major, so then why is the 3rd minor?

am i makin sense or am i a complete fool?

[Schlyder]

You are on the right track. You are HARMONIZING THE MAJOR SCALE.
Forget what you were told. You are confusing what you have discovered with something else.

You are confusing the third chord in a harmonized major scale, with the terminology of a chord tone, the 3rd. Which can be Major or minor. And also gives the tonality of most chords.
A major chord has a major 3rd in it, a minor chord has a minor 3rd in it.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

so i was working through my modes and started playing the chords to the modes and i noticed something odd

while working through the chords of the modes of the major scale i noticed that the 3rd chord is minor in the major scale

but iw as told the 3rd is what makes the major quality like the root mode uses the 3rd to determine that is is major, so then why is the 3rd minor?

am i makin sense or am i a complete fool?

It would help if you could give an example with note names. But I guess I understand your question.

major scale: CDEFGABC
3rd chord: EGB(D)

The major scale is diatonic =''covering the octave in whole steps and half steps". In the case of the major scale whole-whole-half-whole-whole-wole-half. Nothing can change that.

So creating chords of 3 and 4 notes from the major scale CDEFGABC we get:
CEG major triad and CEGB major 7th chord
DFA minor triad and DFAC minor 7trh chord
EGB minor triad and EGBD minor 7trh chord
FAC major triad and FACE major 7th chord
GBD major triad and GBDF dominant 7th chord
ACE minor triad and ACEG minor 7th chord
BDF diminished triad and BDFA half diminished 7th chord

Or did you mean something else?

[Schlyder]

"while working through the chords of the modes of the major scale" = Harmonizing the Major scale.

Now, do that ( Harmonize the Major scale) in all 12 keys.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

"while working through the chords of the modes of the major scale" = Harmonizing the Major scale.

'Chords of the modes'...

to quote JTE: "AAAHHHRRGGG!!"

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by Chris K

'Chords of the modes'...

to quote JTE: "AAAHHHRRGGG!!"

hahahahahahah I know. There is lots of terminology confusion here on TB. But most of the time it can be decyphered.

[dalconthenovice]

this level fo thought relating to music theory is still very new to me
so what i'm getting is... confusion

so in the A major the 3rd chord consists of the notes Csharp, E, and Gsharp which translates to a Csharp minor to my brain, and if i remember correctly the third note/chord/scale/blah determines minor/major tone, now i havne't worked on the minor scale yet to see what would happen but i'm just confused as to how that works, if the 3rd note determines whether or not it is major shouldn't the chord ALSO be major?

or am i just draggin myself around in circles?

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

this level fo thought relating to music theory is still very new to me
so what i'm getting is... confusion

so in the A major the 3rd chord consists of the notes Csharp, E, and Gsharp which translates to a Csharp minor to my brain......
This is good
==============================================
, and if i remember correctly the third note/chord/scale/blah determines minor/major tone, now i havne't worked on the minor scale yet to see what would happen but i'm just confused as to how that works, if the 3rd note determines whether or not it is major shouldn't the chord ALSO be major?

or am i just draggin myself around in circles? This is circles

[dalconthenovice]

i'm so lost lol

[Shakin-Slim]

Yeah second part is definitely your confusion. What determines the major/minor is the third degree of the chord. Which is the E in the C#minor. It is a minor third away from C#, if it was a major third away, an F, then it would be a major chord. Remember a chord is made up of 3 notes (essentially). 1, 3, 5. The 3 is what gives it that colour. That's the 3 within the chord, not the third note of the scale. Unless you're playing a I chord, then the third of the scale would be the third of the chord, but let's not get more confused. Gee I hope I explained that okay. It always sounds better in my head.

[Schlyder]

Let's look at your example of A Major.

The triad and chord built from the second note in the scale.
B minor triad, and a B minor 7 chord
B - D - F# and B - D - F# - A
1 - b3 - 5 and 1 -b3- 5 - b7

What makes the minor tonality is the "minor 3rd" in the B minor triad, and the B minor 7 chord. The note D is a minor 3rd up from the 1, (Root) B

If this is confusing for you, it is because you don't fully understand some basic theory. No worries, you are learning now. I suggest getting a book on basic music theory. And start all over, at the begining, chapter one. And start relearning everything. Making sure you have 100% clear understanding before moving ahead in the book.
A book that I recommend is "Keys to Music Rudiments" textbook. (Thompson Publications) It costs about $6.

Looky what I found http://books.google.ca/books?id=9aob...page&q&f=false
There is about 1/4 of the book there.
Go to page 24..... INTERVALS

When you have questions, come on TB and ask. Some one will have the right answer for you.

[fearceol]

"Study Bass" is a great site for beginners. Here, it deals with intervals. In the diagrams, if you put your mouse over the notes, it sounds them.


http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

i'm so lost lol

Yep, theory - we pick up bits and pieces of "stuff" and never seem to get the whole picture. Your bits and pieces are correct, it's your bits don't fit the situation. You don't have the whole story.

Let's take it from the top build a firm foundation and then all those bits and pieces should make since. Try this:
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11975 I started this in 2006 and made my last update today. Theory in six steps, start with step one. Speed read till you have to slow down.

Good luck.

[RJC1811]

Go spend some time at piano or keyboard. As a mostly self taught guitar/bass player I learned my theory in "Bits and pieces" as MalcolmAmos said. I would take a lesson here and there and learn a few more bits etc. I accumulated a lot of theory knowledge but couldn't put it all together until we bought our daughter a piano. I sat down at it and there it all was, literally in black and white. Scales and chords can be obscure on a bass/ guitar and very hard to visualize at first.

On a keyboard it's all linear and there is only one place to play each note. I'm a visual learner so this worked very well for me. Work in the C scale and it's all very plain. Start on C (Ionian) and notice which notes are a whole step apart (have a black key between them) and which are 1/2 step apart (2 white keys together).

If you want to look at modes, look at the C scale C to C, now move to D (Dorian mode) same notes, still all white keys, just based off a different tonal center "D" which makes it minor. Just keep starting on the next key to the right and you have all the modes, again noticing the whole or half step relations between the notes.

Now looking at chords start on C skip a key add E skip a key add G, you have a C major chord 1-3-5. Now move that shape one key to the right through the whole scale and you will see and hear the harmonized scale. Again notice the intervals between chord tones.

Now it should be easy to see the difference between the 3rd note in the chord and the 3rd note in the harmonized scale. The 3rd in the C major chord is E and a major 3rd. The 3rd note in the scale E when harmonized in the C scale is EGB (E minor) with the G being the minor 3rd of the E chord.

This really helped me see and hear the context of harmony. It was still all just white keys, cdefgabc but it was the note relationships that determined the tonality. You can add the 7ths to the chords for more flavor and understanding major/minor 7ths.

Now you can take any scale and work it out on the keyboard and see it logically adding in the black keys as needed. Another good exercise is to play all the modes on the piano starting on C. You see how they deviate from the major scale as you have to add the black keys.

Maybe I'm odd but this really worked for me. Hope it helps.

Bob

[guroove]

You are confusing chords with notes. The 3rd in any key, scale, or chord defines whether the chord is major or minor. If it's a major 3rd, the chord or scale built off of that note will be minor. If you look at any chord, the intervals alternate between major 3rds and minor 3rds.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

so in the A major the 3rd chord consists of the notes Csharp, E, and Gsharp which translates to a Csharp minor to my brain, and if i remember correctly the third note/chord/scale/blah determines minor/major tone, now i havne't worked on the minor scale yet to see what would happen but i'm just confused as to how that works, if the 3rd note determines whether or not it is major shouldn't the chord ALSO be major?

No. As Schlyder and others said, you're confusing a couple of different things.

Whether the 3rd degree of a scale--let's take the A major scale--is a major 3rd away from the root of that scale does not make the chord built on that 3rd degree a major chord.

So in A, C# is the 3rd degree, and it's a major 3rd away from A. The diatonic triad built on that C# is C# minor, C#-E-G#.

Here's one of the things I think you're not getting. C# is the 3rd of A, so the quality of the A-C(#) relationship--that is whether a chord built on A is major or minor or whatever--is determined by what the C(#) is doing. BUT C# is not the 3rd of a C# chord! It's the root (1). So the major-minor quality of a chord built on C# is determined not by the C#, which is the root, but by the 3rd of the C# chord (E).

[bottomzone]

This guy does a good job of explaining the how and why of modes. Each mode is explained in it's own separate video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxuv5nO9kD8


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!

[mambo4]

I'll take a stab at it cuz I like trying to clarify this crap

Originally Posted by dalconthenovice

i remember correctly the third note/chord/scale/blah determines minor/major tone, ... if the 3rd note determines whether or not it is major shouldn't the chord ALSO be major?

Your confusion is understandable. The spoken English is confusing here:
the words"first", "third", "fifth" get used interchangeably when referring to scale tones, chord tones and chords.
It is of critical importance to clarify which one is being spoken about to avoid confusion.

What you are mixed up on is the difference between these things:
the 3rd note of a chord
the 3rd note of a scale /key
the 3rd CHORD of a scale

so when you say "the third note/chord/scale/blah determines minor/major tone"
you are smashing together a few different concepts that don't quite belong in one pile.
So i will try to separate them into their own piles:

Q: What determines if a chord is major or minor?
A: the 3rd note of a chord

Q: What determines the if the 3rd note of a chord should be major or minor?
A: It depends on which note of the scale/key is the ROOT.
(Another way to say that is which chord of the scale is it?)

-------
in a Major scale,
the I chord uses notes 1, 3, and 5
the interval from 1 to 3 is a major third.
so the I chord is major

the iii chord starts on the 3. So it uses notes 3,5 and 7.
the interval from 3 to 5 is a minor third
...so the chord based on the 3 is a minor chord.
Note that the 1 is not part of the iii chord , so the interval between 1 and 3 does not matter.

--------
when writing, keep in mind this useful convention :
arabic numerals (1234567) refer to specific scale tones, from the root of the scale being discussed.
"place" numbers (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th etc) refer to chord tones , from the root of the chord being discussed. Also to intervals (major 3rd, Minor 3rd)
Roman numerals (I,IV,V ect) refer to chords. Capital =major chords (I,IV,V) lowercase=minor chords(ii,iii,iv)

[fearceol]

Well explained Mambo4 !