Chords and Progressions

[rydin4lifebass]

I take lessons every Monday and just had this discussion with my instructor but wanted to ask here while its still fresh in my head. We are working on writing out a song (David Allan Coe-Pick Em, Lick Em, Stick Em)...which is basic country. He explained that most basic country will be your 1 note and then the 5 note (we just finished working on Merle Haggard-Okie from Muskogee this way).

He explained a chord as 1-3-5 with two tones between 1 and 3 and a tone and semitone between 3 and 5. Then we got to looking at the progression and its 1-4-5. So I guess I'm confused as far as what is the difference between a chord 1-3-5 and progression 1-4-5 (like in a 12 bar blues progression)? Are these different things or is the progression 1-4-5 made up from the 1-3-5 chord? Also..where does each come into play?

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

He explained a chord as 1-3-5 with two tones between 1 and 3 and a tone and semitone between 3 and 5. Then we got to looking at the progression and its 1-4-5. So I guess I'm confused as far as what is the difference between a chord 1-3-5 and progression 1-4-5 (like in a 12 bar blues progression)?

The first example (chords made up of 1-3-5) is referring to scale degree: The 1 (tonic), the 3rd, and the 5th of the scale when combined form the tonic triad chord.

The second example is referring to harmonic function, and strictly speaking should be indicated with Roman numerals: I-IV-V. Those indicate the root note from the current key that the chords are built upon.

So in the key of, say, C major, the I chord is a C major triad made up of the 1st, 3rd, & 5th degrees of the C major scale. The IV chord is an F major triad made up of the 1st, 3rd, & 5th degrees starting on F (but still of the C major scale). The V chord is a G major triad made up of the 1st, 3rd, & 5th degrees starting on G (but again still of the C major scale).

That distinction, that they are "still of the C major scale" will start to become more important when you look at diatonic chords other than I-IV-V, because their harmonic function will out of necessity change dramatically: The II chord in C major is a D minor triad made up of the 1st, 3rd, & 5th degrees starting on D; because it's still of the C major scale, that 3rd degree counting up from D is an F natural, which makes the triad a minor triad.

[ericw]

Man I had a whole book written to say that...

[rydin4lifebass]

I was thinking that the I-IV-V came out of the 1-3-5 chord but in essense, you're saying that they are the same thing, correct? So if the song is written in, say D, my I-IV-V is D-G-A. So for the I, I would play with D being my I, the G would then become I, and the A then become I, correct? How does the I-III-V apply to that?

If I'm thinking correctly, during the I of the progression (excuse my terminology)..the chords you could play would be I-III-IV?..so D-F#-A
in IV - would also be I-III-IV starting with G so G-B-D
and in V would be I-III-IV starting with A so A-C#-E?

[DarkArwen]

Using your Roman numerals are hamonic funtion.
Normal numbers refer to scale degree.
So in your example
D which is I in function. The notes D is (1) F# is (3) A is (5) of the D which is I in function.

The G is IV in function.
The G is (1) the B is (3) the D is (5) of the G which is the IV of the song.
I hope this helps you understand.

[DarkArwen]

UM, OK, I just read your edit and now I don't understand your question. There are some AWESOME tb'ers who have been great help to me. Hopefully some of them slide on over.

[rydin4lifebass]

holy **** this is confusing...haha

so I have the progression I-IV-V (D-G-A) since the song is in D..

Now...how does the 1-3-5 play into that, will a chord always be 1-3-5?...I know there are additions of a 7th, etc...but to keep it basic for me.

My main question is what is the 1-3-5, what is the I-IV-V and which comes first? Is one derived from the other? And what basic use are they for, in bass and for the song as a whole.

[ericw]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

Now...how does the 1-3-5 play into that, will a chord always be 1-3-5?...I know there are additions of a 7th, etc...but to keep it basic for me.

Yes. The basic chord is called a triad and it is made up of three notes - the 1, 3, and 5 notes.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

I was thinking that the I-IV-V came out of the 1-3-5 chord but in essense, you're saying that they are the same thing, correct? So if the song is written in, say D, my I-IV-V is D-G-A. So for the I, I would play with D being my I, the G would then become I, and the A then become I, correct? How does the I-III-V apply to that?

If I'm thinking correctly, during the I of the progression (excuse my terminology)..the chords you could play would be I-III-IV?..so D-F#-A
in IV - would also be I-III-IV starting with G so G-B-D
and in V would be I-III-IV starting with A so A-C#-E?

No, read Hoover's post again. He's saying they're NOT the same thing.

It may come easier if you don't mix up your terms. Use Arabic numbers for the notes in the construction of a chord. Use Roman numerals for description of the functions the chords are exercising in the harmony. When your teacher talked about 1-3-5, he was talking about the former. When he talked about I-IV-V, he was talking about the latter.

When you talk about harmonic function, you talk about it in reference to the overall key. Thus, within D, as you note, a D chord is I, G is IV, and A is V. But when you talk about building individual chords as 1-3-5, the frame of reference is the individual note. Thus, for the moment, you take whatever note you're on--whether it's D, E, F#, G A B, or C#--as the 1 and then count up from there.

It is really important to distinguish this way of building chords in 3rds from the idea of harmonic function. All of the triads in basic Western harmony are built in the 1-3-5 pattern, but they can have different harmonic functions.

[MalcolmAmos]

Sorry Richard - we posted at the same time. Hitch hiking on Richard's post......

We are talking about chords and notes here. Chords are referred to in Roman numbers and scale notes are referred to in Arabic numbers. It is confusing and that is why we write one using Roman numbers and one using Arabic (normal) numbers.

C scale = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C these scale notes are called by their name. We identify which specific one by intervals...
...............1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. The 3rd interval in the C scale is the E note. Now the chords in the......
Key of C= C, Dm, Em F, G, Am, Bdim, C and we identify them with these Roman numbers......
................I, ii,....iii...IV, V, vi,..viidim. I

Chords are made of two, three and four notes of the scale and we write which ones using Arabic numbers. Like this:
C = the C, E & G notes or the 1-3 & 5 notes of the C scale.
Dm has the D, F & A notes or the 1-b3-5 notes of the D scale. Notice the F# is flatted to a natural F because it is a minor chord.

Check this out:
http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

Here is a handy dandy scale chart of the major and natural minor scale. To find what chords are in a Major Key take the scale and put this formula under the scale notes; I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim, I the upper case numbers become major chords and the lower case chords become minor chords.

For a minor key use this formula; i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII, i.

You have to know what notes are in each major and natural minor scale to pull all this off. Here is a handy dandy scale chart.

Major Scale Chart
C D E F G A B...............Notice the C scale has no Sharps
G A B C D E F#.............and the G scale has one, the F#
D E F# G A B C#...........and the D scale keeps the F# and
A B C# D E F# G#.........adds the C#. Then the A scale keeps
E F# G# A B C# D#.......everything and adds the G#. See how
B C# D# E F# G# A#.....it builds on it's self.
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
F G A Bb C D E.............Look what happens with the flat scales
Bb C D Eb F G A...........F has one the Bb, then the Bb scale keeps
Eb F G Ab Bb C D.........it's self and adds the the Eb. Same thing
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G.......the sharp scales did...
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
Memory pegs:
See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasily cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
The key signature is showing three sharps. What scale has three sharps? C has none, G has one, D has two, A has three. Which sharps? Fat = F#, Cat = C# and Go = G# so the A major scale has three sharps, F#, C# and G#.

Natural Minor Scale Chart
A B C D E F G ................Notice how the 6th column of the
E F# G A B C D................Major scale becomes the 1st column
B C# D E F# G A..............in the minor scale and how the 7th
F# G# A B C# D E............column of the Major scale is now the
C# D# E F# G# A B..........2nd column in the minor scale. And
G# A# B C# D# E F#........yep, the 1st column in the Major scale
D# E# F# G# A# B C#......is now the 3rd column, etc. etc.
A# B# C# D# E# F# G#....Ask your self why? Hint, think relative minor.
D E F G A Bb C
G A Bb C D Eb F
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb

Have fun.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

holy **** this is confusing...haha

so I have the progression I-IV-V (D-G-A) since the song is in D..

Now...how does the 1-3-5 play into that, will a chord always be 1-3-5?...I know there are additions of a 7th, etc...but to keep it basic for me.

My main question is what is the 1-3-5, what is the I-IV-V and which comes first? Is one derived from the other? And what basic use are they for, in bass and for the song as a whole.

For the 1-3-5, I'm going to borrow from the estimable JTE:

A good place to start is to learn about the harmonized scale. THIS is where chords come from, and it's important to learn. It's easy too. Just take every other note of the scale and stack them up. Then do the same with the next note of the scale, etc.

For example, using C major...

Write out the scale...

C D E F G A B C

Then, starting at the third note, repeat it above what you just wrote...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And again, starting a third from the last line you wrote to get the triads...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

This is 1-3-5 in a nutshell.

This is about how you build a chord.

I-IV-V is about what those chords are doing in a key.

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

holy **** this is confusing...haha

so I have the progression I-IV-V (D-G-A) since the song is in D..

Now...how does the 1-3-5 play into that, will a chord always be 1-3-5?...I know there are additions of a 7th, etc...but to keep it basic for me.

My main question is what is the 1-3-5, what is the I-IV-V and which comes first? Is one derived from the other? And what basic use are they for, in bass and for the song as a whole.

Someone with more experience can correct me if I get this wrong, but if I understand my teacher correctly, it goes like this.
You have that basic repeating progression of D-G-A. Let's pretend our example is in 4/4 to keep it simple.
For each D, G, and A, you could strum that note four times (1-1-1-1) and move on to the next note repeating the DGA loop as many times as necessary. If you want to mix it up a little, you could start using that 1-3-5. Since it is in 4/4, you might go with 1-5-1-5 instead of the root four times. Or you could do 1-3-5-3 to fill it out and make it more interesting. Remember that each time the 1 is changing, which makes the other notes change as well, although their relationship to each other is still the same so they all work together.

[rydin4lifebass]

ok..that does make sense. So a C chord is CEG..and D chord is DFA...etc.

SOOOOO...let's say we're playing a song in 12 bar blues in the key of C......we would have the following breakdown

I-C
IV-G
V-A
This is called the "chord progression".

The chords for each are then
C: C-E-G
G: G-B-D
A: A-C-E

Am I correct in that? If so...during the first bars in C..what could/would I play..straight C notes, a mixture of CEG? just CG..how do I know my options?

[MalcolmAmos]

You did a good job of explaining it. Let's put this into some fake chord sheet music and see how it plays out.

I [D] tried so hard my dear to show that you're my every [A7] dream
Yet you're afraid each thing I do is just some evil [D] scheme
A mem'ry from your lonesome past keeps us [D7] so far a-[G] part
Why [A7] can't I free your doubtful mind and melt your Cold, Cold [D] Heart.

The chords used are D, A7, D, D7, G, A7 and this verse then ends with the D.

The chord progression is I-V7-I-I7-IV-V7-I

Now like you said over the I chord you have several things you can do for your bass line. you can sound all roots or D, D, D, D which is normally written as R-R-R-R or again like you say you could have used R-5-R-5 or R-3-5-3 really just about anything that stays within the chord tones.

My point we talk about chords in the song using Roman numbers and the notes in the song using Arabic numbers.

Once that sinks in it should clear up any misunderstanding.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

ok..that does make sense. So a C chord is CEG..and D chord is DFA...etc.

SOOOOO...let's say we're playing a song in 12 bar blues in the key of C......we would have the following breakdown

I-C
IV-G
V-A
This is called the "chord progression".

The chords for each are then
C: C-E-G
G: G-B-D
A: A-C-E

Am I correct in that? If so...during the first bars in C..what could/would I play..straight C notes, a mixture of CEG? just CG..how do I know my options?

No, in the key of C F would be the IV, and G would be the V. So your three chords would be C E G, F A C, G B D.

With blues, this can get complicated, because blues doesn't really fit totally into the harmonic concepts of standard Western harmony. For instances, in blues, you generally play all those chords as dominant 7th chords: C E G Bb, F A C Eb, G B D F. So it might be easier to think in terms of a Hank Williams or Woody Guthrie song.

As for what you could play, that depends. Certainly just playing the roots is the simplest thing. You could also try 1-5 and 1-3-5-3. Sometimes it happens that some patterns are more common than others in certain types of music. Ask your teacher to show you some "typical" patterns.

[tlr1293]

Originally Posted by rydin4lifebass

ok..that does make sense. So a C chord is CEG..and D chord is DFA...etc.

SOOOOO...let's say we're playing a song in 12 bar blues in the key of C......we would have the following breakdown

I-C - C
IV-G - F
V-A - G
This is called the "chord progression".

The chords for each are then
C: C-E-G
G: G-B-D
A: A-C-E

Am I correct in that? If so...during the first bars in C..what could/would I play..straight C notes, a mixture of CEG? just CG..how do I know my options?

I certainly hope this is correct - because after reading, re-reading, deciphering, flipping upside-down, and reverse mirror objectifying each reply...
This is how I understand it.

My wondering at this point - why can't teachers/helpers/explainers just say that to begin with?

I can only assume that the explanation is what resides in their head and dropping it down to it's simplest form can be kind of tough, considering the level they are at (<---NOT a demeaning statement, one more in awe and admiration then riducule).

[Rudreax]

In a 1-4-5 progression, you can use the 1, the 3, and/or the 5 with each chord to make it sound good. So, a D major progression (D-G-A), you can use the 1-3-5 of each chord when that specific chord is played. You options would look like this is in the progression:

(D-F#-A)-(G-B-D)-(A-C#-E)
(1-3-5)-(1-3-5)-(1-3-5)

I'm assuming we're talking about major so I'll leave minor out of it.

[mid_life_crisis]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

I'm assuming we're talking about major so I'll leave minor out of it.

Yes, the confusion levels here are a whole
league of their own.

[tlr1293]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

In a 1-4-5 progression, you can use the 1, the 3, and/or the 5 with each chord to make it sound good. So, a D major progression (D-G-A), you can use the 1-3-5 of each chord when that specific chord is played. You options would look like this is in the progression:

(D-F#-A)-(G-B-D)-(A-C#-E)
(1-3-5)-(1-3-5)-(1-3-5)

I'm assuming we're talking about major so I'll leave minor out of it.

That rocks - thanks!

[rydin4lifebass]

First off..thanks for explaining this to me...I hope one day when I know all this stuff I have the freakin patience to explain it to someone else.

I see wht I did wrong in my earlier post. IN C, My I, IV, and V would be C, F, G respecivly. The chords would be as follows:
formula 1-3-5
C chord: C-E-G
F chord: F-A-C
G chord: G-B-D

So as a song progresses from I to IV to V, my chords change accordingly. My instructor was telling me that most country songs use the first note and its fifth...so if I'm playing a song which is in C and I'm in the on a C chord (I) in the progression, and I alternate 1-5, I'll be playing C-G ...?...when the song moves to the F chord, I'll be playing F-C..?