Chords and Scales

[iceshaft07]

Hey everyone, I've been studying the relationship between scales and chords trying to improve my lines for when I go to practice.

If may guitarist plays A minor, does that mean I should play the notes in an A minor scale, or does that mean I should play the notes in an A minor chord only?

[dulouz]

That would depend on where you are going and where you are coming from, as well as the tonal implications of the tune you are playing. You could chose many scales: minor blues, harmonic minor, melodic minor, natural minor, the dorian mode, etc...

[funkydjembe]

You could try throwing in the minor third (C) at least since this note defines "minor". Don't be afraid to experiment with all of the notes in that Am scale. Experiment with the notes outside of the scale also. You really have to listen to how each tone affects the "feeling" of the groove. Don't forget your main job though, and that's keeping the ground-notes solid 'cause the other guys are building on top of the sounds you make.

[uturnbass]

Pentatonic minor scales are fun scales to groove under a minor chord.

[funkydjembe]

Originally Posted by uturnbass

Pentatonic minor scales are fun scales to groove under a minor chord.

+1 there you go! when in doubt stick with the pentatonic

[DocBop]

You can play with
A natural minor (Aeolean mode)
A Dorian mode (Santana and default choice for many)
A Phyrigan mode (Spanish sound)
A Bebop minor (adds some tension)
A Blues scale
A Diminished (half-whole)
A Melodic minor like Dorian but a major 7th.
C Major pentatonic

That will get you started.

[Chili]

i'm still learning scales and modes, well not so much on modes yet, but, what exactly are modes? differant patterns in a scale that gives the scale a certain feel or sound? or am i way off

[Charling]

Originally Posted by Chili

i'm still learning scales and modes, well not so much on modes yet, but, what exactly are modes? differant patterns in a scale that gives the scale a certain feel or sound? or am i way off

modes are pretty simple mate, as there name suggests (kinda) thay are just different ways of playing a scale. so the major scale has moire than one mode, or way of playing it.

you've got the jist, if you play a major scale but start on the second note and end on the second note then you get a different mode of the major scale (in c for example you would play D E F G A B C D).

because the gaps between the notes shift around a bit when you do this the scale gets a different sound, the second mode of the major scale (the one above) for example has 3 frets between the 1st and 3rd notes, not 4, meaning it has a minor sound. the best way is to experiment, the names of the modes are as follow, with examples in C

1st mode Ionian (what we call major) C D E F G A B C
2nd mode Dorian D E F G A B C D
3rd mode Phyrigian E F G A B C D E
4th mode Lydian F G A B C D E F
5th mode Mixolydian G A B C D E F G
6th mode Aeolian (what we normally call minor or more correctly natural minor) A B C D E F G A
7th mode Locrian B C D E F G A B

get used to these and then maybe look at a bit of major scale harmony theory, which will show you why they are useful and where you should think about using them!

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Chili

i'm still learning scales and modes, well not so much on modes yet, but, what exactly are modes? differant patterns in a scale that gives the scale a certain feel or sound? or am i way off

Modes can be used multiple ways. In general most use them when soloing or creating Walking bass lines. As Charling showed they are like starting and stopped a scale on different degree. You combine this with the harmonized major scale you start seeing chord/scale relationships.

Take the Major scale modes in C....
C->C Ionian mode C Maj7 chord the major scale
D->D Dorian mode D mi7 chord a major 6th in a minor scale
E->E Phrygian mode E mi7 chord a minor 2nd in a minor scale
F->F Lydian mode F Maj7 chord a sharp 4th in major scale
G->G Mixolydian mode G7 chord a flat 7th in a major scale
A->A Aeolian mode A mi7 chord the natural minor scale
B->B Locrian mode B mi7-5 chord a minor 2nd and flat 5 in a minor scale.

That is very basic look at the modes. The key is to record the chord for the mode and try playing it against the chord to get the sound in your ear. Then player will use based on basic type like

Ionian, Lydian are Major modes.
Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian are Minor modes.
Mixolydian is the dominant mode.
Locrian is use for mi7-5 chords and fully altered dominants.

Jazz player also use some of the modes of the Melodic Minor scale. Some the Harmonic Minor scale.

Modes are also used for composition. Classical composers thought the modes implied moods. Modal Jazz tunes are another example.

Most people just learn the fingering for modes and that's it. The key to modes is learning the sound of them and which notes of the mode is giving it, its sound.

That some tidbits on modes.

[Chili]

thx guys, its starting to become more clear now, i've got the complete learn to play bass book and ill start working on modes in there.

[Richard Lindsey]

I think you can get a clearer idea of how the sounds of the modes differ by playing them all from the same starting point. E.g.,

D ionian (major): D E F# G A B C# D
D lydian: D E F# G# A B C# D
D mixolydian: D E F# G A B C D
D dorian: D E F G A B C D
D aeolian (natural minor): D E F G A Bb C D
D phrygian: D Eb F G A Bb C D
D locrian: D Eb F G Ab Bb C D

They're not really just different ways of playing a major scale (though you can derive them that way); they're scales unto themselves.

And as was said earlier, when you think of what notes to use with a given chord, you generally don't think solely of the particular chord. You think also of where you've come from and where you're going, and you consider the harmonic "space" you happen to be in at the moment (key, modality, tonal center, what have you). You would likely approach an Am one way if it's the tonal center of a tune in A phrygian, another way if it's the ii chord in a song in G major, and another way if it's the vi chord in a tune in C major.

And FWIW, you don't always have to think of yourself as playing a different scale/mode for every chord. Often, that's needlessly complicated IMO (though sometimes it's essential). For example, if you're playing a progression that lies totally within C major (say, C Am Dm G C), you can often just use the C major scale throughout. BUT you have to make sure to make different selections of notes from within that scale depending on what chord you're on. You can't just noodle in C. Often this can be a good way of understanding and mentally reinforcing the idea that you're establishing a particular key, or a modality, or a distinct harmonic space. Sometimes, if you're thinking in terms of a different scale/mode for every chord. you can be tempted to think that every chord is its own discrete harmonic world, and that's not always the most useful way to go about it. If a sequence of chords is harmonically related in a single tonality, you don't necessarily want to obscure or mis that.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I think you can get a clearer idea of how the sounds of the modes differ by playing them all from the same starting point. E.g.,

D ionian (major): D E F# G A B C# D
D lydian: D E F# G# A B C# D
D mixolydian: D E F# G A B C D
D dorian: D E F G A B C D
D aeolian (natural minor): D E F G A Bb C D
D phrygian: D Eb F G A Bb C D
D locrian: D Eb F G Ab Bb C D

Absolutely! This really helps with the ear.

Then, practice them within the same key center. C major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, B locrian. (then Db, then D, then Eb... you get the idea. 12 different key centers, 7 different forms, 84 scales!)All of the modes will use the same notes, but have a different sound as they have a different root and scale form. This is a great way to learn the fretboard, if you don't already know it well, it also begins to reveal some finger patterns that can be useful.