Chords, Scales, and keys -- help

[dconrad]

I am not sure I understand how these work together.

For example, Creep by Radiohead is in G major, which gives me the scale of G A B C D E F# g. The chords are G (G B D), B (B D F#), C (C E G), Cmin. (C Eb G).

So is the Cmin chord "out of place" in the key? (By this I mean that Eb is not in the Gmaj scale) Or is the key of the song just changing for a couple bars? Or some third option that I am not seeing?

[DocBop]

You didn't say what follows the Cmi in the progression so hard to tell if changing keys. With just the few chords you gave I would say the Cmi is parallel key. In other words the Key name remains G but changes from major to minor. So in G major the IV chord if C ma and in G minor the IV C mi. They borrowed the chord from G natural minor.

[dconrad]

Thanks, that makes sense -- some of these things can be a bit confusing for newbs

Originally Posted by DocBop

You didn't say what follows the Cmi in the progression so hard to tell if changing keys.

The chords just repeat so the next one is G again. I'm using the song to noodle around in and get used to hearing what notes work and dont. I'll try dropping the B, D, and F# for the bars during the Cmin chord, and see how that sounds.

[Deacon_Blues]

I don't know this song, but did you mean a B minor or major? If you meant B major, there is actually an Eb in that chord too, not only in Cm.

Don't think too much about the theory behind the B and the Cm, they are basically examples of "learn as much theory as you can and then forget about it and just play". Btw, these changes are rather common and a lot of music would be much more boring if everything just followed the natural scales.

Think of these E flats as spices that adds some flavour to the music.

[Eli M.]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

I don't know this song, but did you mean a B minor or major? If you meant B major, there is actually an Eb in that chord too, not only in Cm.

I saw that too in the original post, dconrad spelled a minor chord but called it major. But actually, the B major chord would contain a D#, not an Eb... It's the enharmonic equivalent (theoretically the same note), but you have to spell a triad in thirds, hence B D# F#.

Originally Posted by DocBop

In other words the Key name remains G but changes from major to minor.

True, the Cm is borrowed from the parallel minor - this is called mode mixture. But I would not say that the key briefly changes to the parallel minor.

The key being major or minor depends on one thing only - the I (or i) chord. If it is minor, you are in minor; if it is major, you are in major. The G is a major chord, so I would only call the Cm chord mode mixture, not a brief switch to the minor (but of course I could just be splitting hairs; that might be exactly what you mean )

[stedtale]

in G maj

-using a B maj, I think it's actually a B7 ( in that song, is the Dominant in the relative minor (Eminor can have a B7 in it). Gmaj-B7-Cmajor creates a chromatic walk up of D-D#-E in the harmony.

-using the Cmaj-Cmin-Gmaj creates a cromatic walkdown from E-Eb-D in the harmony, which is a mirror of the chromatics in Gmaj-B7-Cmaj.

Both are very common alterations/colorations, the iv-I (minor 4 to major 1) is a common way to get back to the root chord (I). It's not really changing keys, it is, in a way, hinting at other keys and using non-diatonic notes to add color and tension to the piece.

There's actually some nice chromatic movement going on in that song.

chords: G-B7-C-Cm-G-B7-C-Cm
notes : D-D#-E-Eb-D-D#-E-Eb


EDIT: I guess it is a Bm, so nevermind the D# stuff....

[ryco]

Originally Posted by dconrad

So is the Cmin chord "out of place" in the key? (By this I mean that Eb is not in the Gmaj scale) Or is the key of the song just changing for a couple bars?

The Eb is borrowed from another key. Notes used that are not in the key are called nondiatonic.

Here's this: http://www.flupe.com/lessons/freeLes...tervals_03.htm

Hope this helps

[dconrad]

Thanks guys, a lot of this stuff helps out. By the way, the B chord is indeed a minor chord.

I've been messing around with the song and trying out throwing in fifths and thirds and sevenths and things to see what works.

[Eli M.]

Originally Posted by ryco

Notes used that are not in the key are called nondiatonic.

nondiatonic = chromatic.

[stedtale]

Originally Posted by Eli Maniscalco

nondiatonic = chromatic.

nondiatonic=notes that are not in a given key
chromatic=moving by a half step

I can play a walk of Bb-Ab-Gb, it is nondiatonic to the key of C major, but not chromatic.

EDIT: "C major"