Chords, Scales, Modes, Keys, GROOVE?????

[Sumosized]

Ok, I understand some of the music theory that chords, scales, modes, and keys are based on; HOWEVER, I can't seem to grasp how these things fit into a groove.

If a song is played in the key of G, with a chord progression of G, Amin, G, D--would the chords being played by the bassist only consist of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the Gmaj scale? Or would you play the chord tones from the chord being played by the guitarist?

Also, can you play notes from the Gmaj scale in conjuntion with the guitarist playing an Amin? Or do you only play the notes from the Gmaj that are in the Amin chord???

I hope this makes sense, because it has me baffeled. I would think if you change chord tones from Gmaj to Amin you would be changing keys. But this wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong (after all I am married--I am used to being wrong )

[Erick Lam]

You don't change key, Am is the II chord in the key of G.

As for playing in the G major scale on the Am chord... Yeah, sort of, but not quite. Confused?

This is a very broad subject. I feel harmony is the most important aspect of music theory and there's so much information to digest, it's better done with a book (jazz harmony). Then you take songs and analyze them.

[Arizona Jones]

I'm trying to work this out myself, but I hope I can offer you a little assistance.

Take the notes of the Gmaj scale and play them starting from the A note - A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A. You are playing an A scale in the key of Gmaj and it has a Minor tonality.

If you follow the same steps you will see that -

G, C, D have Major tonalities.

A, B, E have Minor tonalities.

F# is diminished, but still fun to mess with.

So there you go! A bunch of options for the key of Gmaj.

Start up a drum machine and just start running down some root, 3rd, and 5th lines. Go from Major to Minor staying in the key and see how good it sounds.

Keep in mind that there is a lot more to it! But it's a start!

The picture is from a guitar program that tells you what your options are for a given key. Check out the chords on the bottom of the picture. That's what you have to work with in Gmaj. Tell your guitar player to start banging some of them out and see what you can get together!

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by Sumosized

If a song is played in the key of G, with a chord progression of G, Amin, G, D--would the chords being played by the bassist only consist of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the Gmaj scale? Or would you play the chord tones from the chord being played by the guitarist?

Also, can you play notes from the Gmaj scale in conjuntion with the guitarist playing an Amin? Or do you only play the notes from the Gmaj that are in the Amin chord???

your ear is your number one tool here... record the above chord vamp (or any chord sequence you want to work on) and have it playing in the background while you test different things over those chords...

whatever sounds good to you IS correct... rules of harmony are only guidelines... they only describe what's going on, you don't necessarily HAVE to follow them... far better if you worked out a line that sounds great to your ear, then sat down and analysed it and tried to figure out WHY it worked... there's always a reason

all of your questions above would be answered if you sat down & listened to the results & trusted your ear

but here's some basics on playing over chords

as a bass player your job (usually) is to outline the basic rhythm and harmony of the piece, so if you have chord changes going on, your line ought to (usually) consist of chord tones, with an emphasis on the ROOT notes of the chords... that's the basic foundation of bass playing

so if you had a 2-chord sequence going on, backwards & fowards between G & Am, your 1st harmonic job would be to say "here's a chord with a root note of G..." then "here's one with a root note of A".. backwards and forwards hammering out root notes... many millionaire rock players do this

you can take your role as 'basic harmonic content outliner' further by adding different chord tones in your bass line (like you could throw a B into your line over the G chord to indicate the harmony is major), and there are countless ways to connect chords, provided you do your basic job... outline the chord changes

when you change to Am, you're not limited to notes that were part of the G chord... in fact it'd sound darn weird if you did... you're better off emphasising the chord tones of the Am chord you just changed to

when starting off working all this stuff out in the woodshed, you could do a lot worse than to create lines that are ONLY based on the root-3rd-fifth of the chords you're playing over... those 3 chord tones are the absolute meat & potatoes of bass playing.. from beginners to Jaco - check out 'In France They Kiss On Main Street' from Joni Mitchell's 'Shadows And Light' to see an example of inventive root-3rd-fifth usage

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Sumosized

Ok, I understand some of the music theory that chords, scales, modes, and keys are based on; HOWEVER, I can't seem to grasp how these things fit into a groove.

If a song is played in the key of G, with a chord progression of G, Amin, G, D--would the chords being played by the bassist only consist of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the Gmaj scale? Or would you play the chord tones from the chord being played by the guitarist?

The chord progression is the overall harmony of the piece. Your job is to outline that harmony, and the best way to do that is to play chord tones on the strongest beats of the bar.

Assuming it's a four bar progression with one chord per bar...

Key = G major

Bar 1.
Chord = G (I)
Chord tones = G, B, D and possibly F# (1,3,5,7)

Bar 2.
Chord = Am (ii)
Chord tones = A, C, E and possibly G (1,b3,5,b7)

Bar 3.
Chord = G (I)
Chord tones = G, B, D and possibly F# (1,3,5,7)

Bar 4.
Chord = D (V)
Chord tones = D, F#, A and possibly C (1,3,5,b7)

Which beats are the strong beats depend on the time signature and overall feel of the piece, although the first beat of the bar is generally the strongest beat and you won't go far wrong playing the strongest chord tone (the root or 1) on that beat.

You can pretty much play any note from the key on the weak beats and off beats... you might want to play chord tones on every beat, or you might want to keep them to the strong beats and link them with non-chord scale tones (in this case anything from G major).

You might even want to incorporate approach notes to give the piece more momentum, these might be a scalar, one note away from the root of chord you're about to go to, or a dominant approach note a fifth away works good, or even a chromatic approach tone, one half step away works well, even if it's not in the key.

This only really suggests which notes to play. When and how you play them is determined by (and determines) the overall feel of the music. That's what the groove is.

I'd suggest you look into walking basslines, even if jazz isn't your thing. Ed Friedland's book Building Walking Basslines is great for this.

Also, listen to recordings and try to figure out how bassists approach chord progressions and why some work so well. Look for the interplay between the bassist and the drummer especially.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

your ear is your number one tool here...
whatever sounds good to you IS correct... rules of harmony are only guidelines...

Amen. I might add, just for clarity, that the "rules of harmony" are only a collection of the choices made by other musicians. And while there is an accepted collections of rules (otherwise known as music theory) this collection of rules will change for style periods and for the tastes of the trule great musicians of the past. In other words.... the 'rules' that Jaco used are based on his tastes and make him sound different that Ron Carter... both great players with great choices, but different. The choices of harmony that Beethoven made are different from Haydn and once you get on to those rules they sound very different.

So the point if you are learning, copy anyone you want (learn their 'rules'). The next step is to combine all the styles (rules) of music that you like. Then, hopefully, you can come up with an original voice.

Good luck to us all.

[GrooveBass]

cowsgomoo has it pretty much right. I know this is a theory question, and I probably have no place talking about it, because I know no theory, but I thought I'd weigh in. Like I said, I know virtually no theory, and I just play what makes my foot stomp or my hips wiggle, and if that's "ok" then great, and if not, who give's a rats? I subscribe to Eric Avery's theory that when you start playing an instrument, and you know nothing about it other than how it sounds, you play with your own original voice. By worrying about theory, you lose much of that original voice, so I just let that voice sing loud and large and leave the theory to guys who care.

Just so you know, this is all coming from a guy who once played a "wrong" note just because it sounded like the sound was splitting in two around the note that I was playing. It was SWEET

[tZer]

As always - the "use your ears" is a great tool.

But for the sake of experimentation, playing with modes, other scales, etc. is an excellent way to explore possibilities. For me, this is an "offline" activity meaning you do it when you have time to "futs around" to see how different approaches impact a song.

In my own exploration of how modes/scales impact song construction, I created my own little "Pick a key, get some mode suggestion" app. that give me a quick-reference guide of scales based on a primary key signature.

http://www.mydigitalinnerchild.com/_...rator_v04.html

For example; Your song is in Gmaj. (Ionian) - as a bass player, you can opt to "apply the Ionian mode" which, in my world, means you approach it leveraging major scale tonality. So your line will sound rather bright and cheery.

However, if you are interested in finding another "feel", you could opt to apply a minor flavor (Aeolian) to achieve a darker, more serious feel. Since Emin. is the relative minor to Gmaj. you would approach your line by anchoring yourself in an Emin. position, but make sure you approach and resolve your phrases in an harmonic way that is complimentary to Gmaj. - So you can be moving your line through minor intervals (Emin.) and resolving them on notes like D, C, and of course G. By 'working your Emin.' scale with a focus on Gmaj. key tones, your line can take on an interesting dimension that you may not have stumbled upon by just playing in the key of Gmaj. (which you were technically doing anyway, but with a point of view from Emin.).

Ok - there's more confusion for ya...

Here's the app - I have found it to be a very useful "suggestion" tool when I have been working up improvs over jazz standards and such. It is neat to play "So What" in a Phrygian mode, the do it again in using a Mixolydian feel...

[JohnBarr]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

...when starting off working all this stuff out in the woodshed, you could do a lot worse than to create lines that are ONLY based on the root-3rd-fifth of the chords you're playing over..

+1 there, and it never hurts to go back to that. You can build the rest of the world off those simple elements.

[Sumosized]

Thanks everyone. I'm starting with basics and though it would be a good idea to find out where to start. Learning the scales and chords (and how they relate to the scales) sound like o good foundation. I have no problems starting with root, 3rd, and 5th and building from there.

But to make sure I understand the relationship of the chord to the scale--I have another question:

When playing in a specific key (Gmaj.) do you start with the notes in this scale and build chords:

For example:

Scale notes: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
Chord i (Gmaj): 1st, 3rd, 5th-- G,B,D
Chord ii (Amin): 1st, 3rd, 5th (starting with the A in the Gmaj scale)-- A, C, E
Chord iii (B?): 1st, 3rd, 5th (Starting with the B in the Gmaj scale)-- B, D, F#

And so on?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Sumosized

When playing in a specific key (Gmaj.) do you start with the notes in this scale and build chords:

For example:

Scale notes: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
Chord i (Gmaj): 1st, 3rd, 5th-- G,B,D
Chord ii (Amin): 1st, 3rd, 5th (starting with the A in the Gmaj scale)-- A, C, E
Chord iii (B?): 1st, 3rd, 5th (Starting with the B in the Gmaj scale)-- B, D, F#

And so on?

Basically, you could say that. The thing that can be confusing is that the note that functions as the 1 of a given chord for the purposes of chord construction may not be the 1 in terms of the prevailing tonality/modality.

For example, in the chords you gave above, look at A minor. A C E constitute the 1 3 5 of the Am chord, but in relation to the overall tonality of G major, they are the 2nd, 4th, and 6th degrees of the G major scale. This isn't surprising or weird when you think about it. A major, minor, augmented, or diminished triad always consists of some form of 1 3 5, so if your starting point for a given chord is some degree of the scale other than the first, the second and third ntoes of the triad will shift accordingly.

It's analogous to a frame shift, if you're familiar with that concept. Hence:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 1 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 2 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 3 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 4 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 = 1 3 5 triad built on 5 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 3 = 1 3 5 triad built on 6 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 3 4 = 1 3 5 triad built on 7 of the scale

Does that help at all?

EDIT: Fixed previous mistakes born of typing too fast while trying to get out the door....

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Sumosized

Ok, I understand some of the music theory that chords, scales, modes, and keys are based on; HOWEVER, I can't seem to grasp how these things fit into a groove.

Groove is an abstract concept. The same as 'pocket'

[Sumosized]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

It's analogous to a frame shift, if you're familiar with that concept. Hence:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 1 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 2 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 3 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) = 1 3 5 triad built on 4 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 = 1 3 5 triad built on 5 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 3 = 1 3 5 triad built on 6 of the scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(1) 2 3 4 = 1 3 5 triad built on 7 of the scale

Does that help at all?

EDIT: Fixed previous mistakes born of typing too fast while trying to get out the door....

Very much, Thank you!

[momo]

Originally Posted by tZer

As always - the "use your ears" is a great tool.

But for the sake of experimentation, playing with modes, other scales, etc. is an excellent way to explore possibilities. For me, this is an "offline" activity meaning you do it when you have time to "futs around" to see how different approaches impact a song.

In my own exploration of how modes/scales impact song construction, I created my own little "Pick a key, get some mode suggestion" app. that give me a quick-reference guide of scales based on a primary key signature.

http://www.mydigitalinnerchild.com/_...rator_v04.html

For example; Your song is in Gmaj. (Ionian) - as a bass player, you can opt to "apply the Ionian mode" which, in my world, means you approach it leveraging major scale tonality. So your line will sound rather bright and cheery.

However, if you are interested in finding another "feel", you could opt to apply a minor flavor (Aeolian) to achieve a darker, more serious feel. Since Emin. is the relative minor to Gmaj. you would approach your line by anchoring yourself in an Emin. position, but make sure you approach and resolve your phrases in an harmonic way that is complimentary to Gmaj. - So you can be moving your line through minor intervals (Emin.) and resolving them on notes like D, C, and of course G. By 'working your Emin.' scale with a focus on Gmaj. key tones, your line can take on an interesting dimension that you may not have stumbled upon by just playing in the key of Gmaj. (which you were technically doing anyway, but with a point of view from Emin.).

Ok - there's more confusion for ya...

Here's the app - I have found it to be a very useful "suggestion" tool when I have been working up improvs over jazz standards and such. It is neat to play "So What" in a Phrygian mode, the do it again in using a Mixolydian feel...

That site is awsome. ANy chance you could make one with the bass flipped the other way? For some reason, that one is hard to read.

[tZer]

momo - thanks - and maybe. If I do, I will certainly let you know.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by Sumosized

Ok, I understand some of the music theory that chords, scales, modes, and keys are based on; HOWEVER, I can't seem to grasp how these things fit into a groove.

If a song is played in the key of G, with a chord progression of G, Amin, G, D--would the chords being played by the bassist only consist of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the Gmaj scale? Or would you play the chord tones from the chord being played by the guitarist?

Also, can you play notes from the Gmaj scale in conjuntion with the guitarist playing an Amin? Or do you only play the notes from the Gmaj that are in the Amin chord???

I hope this makes sense, because it has me baffeled. I would think if you change chord tones from Gmaj to Amin you would be changing keys. But this wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong (after all I am married--I am used to being wrong )

I didn't even read the replies to your post, but I'm sure that mine with echo some of them. You can do ANYTHING you want. Your ear is the judge. Don't let the theory dictate what you play.

I read a post recently that made me smile; however, I can't remember the TB member's name. It said something like, "Who ever said that they wanted to play just like music theory?". People want to play like a lot of different bassists; but you don't hear people saying that they want to play like "music theory".

Some of those "wrong notes" sound good against the "right notes". "Wrong notes" also like to resolve to "right notes".

Again, trust your ear. If you don't trust your ear, make a sound clip and post a link here on TB. I find that people around here don't hold back.

Joe

[Bassist4Life]

For something a little more concrete:

Here is a link to Bunny Brunel's Cyber School Of Bass. There are a bunch of lessons on his page, but this one might clear up some of the theory for you.

http://www.cyberschoolofbass.com/lesson3/

It is a little difficult to understand Bunny some of the time, but his lessons are pretty good. He has some notation examples with audio AND a video down at the bottom.

He creates a bassline using ALL of the notes in a given mode. He moves the same bass line through all of the major modes and you can hear the "flavor" of each mode as he does it. Good stuff.

Check it out.

Joe

[Bassist4Life]

I play in a jazz trio and I was sitting down with the keyboard player. He was playing a chord progression and soloing over it in different ways. Each way sounded pretty cool. Some were a little "out there", but still sounded good to my ears.

At the end of our little session; he looked at me and said, "See, there are no wrong notes".

Think about it, there are only 12 pitches. If it's not a chord tone or an extension of the chord, it could be a passing tone. Right?

Joe

[iplaybassguitar]

there are no rules...play what sounds good.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I play in a jazz trio and I was sitting down with the keyboard player. He was playing a chord progression and soloing over it in different ways. Each way sounded pretty cool. Some were a little "out there", but still sounded good to my ears.

At the end of our little session; he looked at me and said, "See, there are no wrong notes".

Think about it, there are only 12 pitches. If it's not a chord tone or an extension of the chord, it could be a passing tone. Right?

Joe

Yes and Chick Corea said it ain't what you play outside its how you come back in. Howard Roberts said any note works if you play it fast enough. Miles Davis said there are no wrong notes only opportunities.

Sure in reality any note will work if you know what your are doing. It requires knowledge of strong and weak beats, articulation, motif development, and most important resolution. So either you are in control when you play that "wrong" note, or you experinced enough to make a "wrong" note work, or your not experienced enough and that "wrong" note will stand out to ever one listening.

Most people who know there are no wrong notes, have spent a lot of time learning the right notes first.