Chords and their corresponding modes

[powellmacaque]

So I couldn't really find anything comprehensive via search, but I'm not exactly the best searcher.

What chord types go with modes? I'm speaking on a "jazz notation" basis when I ask this.

For instance:

Cmaj is the Ionian mode/major scale
C7 is the Mixolydian mode
Cmin is the Aeolian mode
and Cdim is the Locrian mode (although I guess Locrian could also be written as Cmin b5).

What are the other chord types and names for the other modes? I know I could just get by with the triads of the chords using a bassline, but I'd like to be able to use the color tones (thirds, sixths, sevenths, even fourths) in some longer basslines.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

So I couldn't really find anything comprehensive via search, but I'm not exactly the best searcher.

What chord types go with modes? I'm speaking on a "jazz notation" basis when I ask this.

For instance:

Cmaj is the Ionian mode/major scale
C7 is the Mixolydian mode
Cmin is the Aeolian mode
and Cdim is the Locrian mode (although I guess Locrian could also be written as Cmin b5).

What are the other chord types and names for the other modes? I know I could just get by with the triads of the chords using a bassline, but I'd like to be able to use the color tones (thirds, sixths, sevenths, even fourths) in some longer basslines.

This is a basic view good in a diatonic context,but there are more possibilities to this because just in the major scale you have two major chords,3 minor chords to start with. These chords can be built from other scales as well so are the dominant chords and min7(b5).

For example a Cma7 can be a lydian (iv).

A C7 can be a V7 in a minor key, a bII7, a bVI7 etc...

A Cmin7 can be a I, a IImin7, a IIImin7 a IVm7 etc...

It is good to learn theory.

I will say that 3 scales cover pretty much all functions in Jazz: Major scale, minor harmonic and minor melodic (jazz).

As for Locrian it should be noted as a Co (diminished) for the triad or Cmin7(b5) for a four notes chord.

[MalcolmAmos]

Let me change this to modes and their corresponding chords.

I have just spent several weeks on a study of modal vamps. Here is where I am right now.
Ionian is best served with a chord progression.
All other modes are best served with a two chord modal vamp - except for Locrian where the i-dim chord droning by itself seems to work best.

My study revolves around the following sites:
http://www.berkleeshares.com/songwri...zz_composition Download this lesson then go to page 2.

Where I'm at now. Pay attention to the Characteristic note for each mode. Note being the magic word in Dorian you are looking for the 6 not necessarily the vi. What chords have a 6 note in their makeup. The tonic for the first chord and the chord that contains the characteristic note for the secondary chord make up your two chord vamp. First chord needs to be played more often than the secondary chord, and of course end with the tonic chord.
For example:
|Cm7 / / / | Cm7 / Am7b5 / | loop back or end on Cm7

Ionian - use your normal chord progression - whatever you normally use in a tonal situation.
C Dorian - Cm7 - Am7b5 (6th note) or perhaps F7 or Dm7 they also have the 6th note - see the comments that follow.
C Phrygian - Cm7 - Dbmaj7 (b2 note)
C Lydian - Cmaj7 - F#m7b5 (#4 note)
C Mixolydian C7 - Bbmaj7 (b7 note)
C Aeolian - Cm7 - Abmaj7 (b6 note)
C Locrian - Cm7b5 (b5 Note - however just one droning chord here)

I'm leaning toward all those "fancy" extensions are not all that necessary to sustain the modal mood - still working on this. The above leans toward using the characteristic note as the root of the second chord, there are other choices for example with C Dorian - Cm7 - Am7b5. Instead of Am7b5 try F7 or Dm7 they both contain the characteristic "A" note. Which sounds better? Looks like there is always going to be another chord containing the characteristic note. Which one to chose? Your choice; which sounds best to you. I'm still working on that.

The point in all this.
Modal vamps sustain the modal mood. Chord progressions call attention to the tonic chord.
Get the characteristic note in there - somewhere. Yes get the characteristic note into the bass line.

Jon at http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=18431 has been a great help with this. You might like to see what we talked about on that site.

[JTE]

What are the notes in the chord? Which modes have those notes? What mood or effect do you want? The rest is left as an exercise for the student.

Teach a man to fish versus giving him a fish, ya know...

John

[raymondl3]

C Ionian: CDEFGABC Cma, C6, Cma7, Cma9
D Dorian DEFGABCD Dmi, D-6, D-7, D-9, D-11
E Phrygian EFGABCDE Emi, E-7#5, E-7, E-11, Esusb9
F Lydian FGABCDEF Fma, F6, Fma7, Fma7b5, Fma9
G Mixolydian GABCDEFG Gma, G6, G7, G9
A Aeolian ABCDEFGA Ami, A-7#5, A-9, A-11
B Locrian BCDEFGAB Bdim, B-7b5

C Ionian AKA "The Major Scale"
A Aeolian AKA "The Minor Scale, Natural Minor"

Record a loop with one of the chords in the list. Play melodic ideas over the loop, experimenting with the chord and scale tones of the mode. Modal music usually outlines the mode in a specific way or gravitates toward a chord that is descriptive of a mode (ex. Fma7b5 = F Lydian). If however you have a song that has a bar each of C F G or C G A- F for ex., the overall mode is C Ionian (ex. 1 and 2) so you would work from that "mode" or group of notes, outlining the chord tones of each chord in the progression. You wouldn't want to "insert" the mode of your choosing (ex. "I'll play Phrygian on every minor chord") in this case (of course there are exceptions) because some of the notes in your mode might work against the prevailing harmony.

[ericw]

Originally Posted by raymondl3

C Ionian: CDEFGABC Cma, C6, Cma7, Cma9
D Dorian DEFGABCD Dmi, D-6, D-7, D-9, D-11
E Phrygian EFGABCDE Emi, E-7#5, E-7, E-11, Esusb9
F Lydian FGABCDEF Fma, F6, Fma7, Fma7b5, Fma9
G Mixolydian GABCDEFG Gma, G6, G7, G9
A Aeolian ABCDEFGA Ami, A-7#5, A-9, A-11
B Locrian BCDEFGAB Bdim, B-7b5

Oohhh nice! I hadn't worked through the tensions yet.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

What are the notes in the chord? Which modes have those notes? What mood or effect do you want? The rest is left as an exercise for the student.

Teach a man to fish versus giving him a fish, ya know...

John

+1

Do you guys really expect people to learn those boxes by heart? That's a pretty stupid idea.

Anyone can figure out all of that stuff from the infinite diatonic scale ...GABCDEFGABCDE... and the infinite diatonic chord ...GBDFACEGBDF... (start & end wherever you like) and should be able to find the correct names to these chords, f.e. BDFA has minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th = half diminished, notation Bm7b5.

Knowing where to use that chord is a different story. It will require talent.

[TheBasicBassist]

Originally Posted by Chris K

+1

Do you guys really expect people to learn those boxes by heart? That's a pretty stupid idea.

Anyone can figure out all of that stuff from the infinite diatonic scale ...GABCDEFGABCDE... and the infinite diatonic chord ...GBDFACEGBDF... (start & end wherever you like) and should be able to find the correct names to these chords, f.e. BDFA has minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th = half diminished, notation Bm7b5.

Knowing where to use that chord is a different story. It will require talent.

+100,000

Chris is a great guy to listen to, I've never seen him steer anyone wrong.

[Stick_Player]

Let me change this to modes and their corresponding chords.

If you try to attach a different scale/mode to each and every chord, you will go insane. This is NOT what is going on with a great soloist or composer.

Find a single scale OR group of notes (i.e., some form of a pentatonic scale, note-cluster) that will work over a larger harmonic progression.

[raymondl3]

Originally Posted by Chris K

+1

Do you guys really expect people to learn those boxes by heart? That's a pretty stupid idea.

Anyone can figure out all of that stuff from the infinite diatonic scale ...GABCDEFGABCDE... and the infinite diatonic chord ...GBDFACEGBDF... (start & end wherever you like) and should be able to find the correct names to these chords, f.e. BDFA has minor 3rd, diminished 5th, minor 7th = half diminished, notation Bm7b5.

Knowing where to use that chord is a different story. It will require talent.

What an awful bit of advice. Your comments demonstrate ignorance. It's like saying "Why learn to spell or read words."

[JTE]

For example (but you GOTTA do this work for yourself, or it's just esoteric theory)...

Cmaj7
Chord is C E G B. Those notes are in the C Major scale, and the G major scale, so if you start the C scale on C, it's C Ionian, if you start the G scale on C it's C Lydian. Next key around the circle is D, and that's got a C#, so none of the sharp keys will work. Going back the other way 'round the circle is F, and that's got a Bb, so none of the flat keys work. Therefore you're left with modes coming from the C major scale and G major scale. Now, do you want the effect that the #4 gives you from the Lydian?

But, I just go straight to the chord tones as my target notes, and passing tones can be either chromatic or diatonic- depends on what I'm after. Because I'm not thinking of passing tones as limited to specific keys, modes are pretty pointless to playing chordal music. Modes only make sense in modal music. Vamping on Dmin7 to G? OK, that's modal because even though it's a ii V in C, you never go to C, and C ain't the key center. But, if you're playing through a series of changes that include Dmin7 to G, then I'm thinking "D F AC" and "G B D F" but I'm also looking at the F# as a great passing tone, etc.

John

[raymondl3]

Originally Posted by JTE

For example (but you GOTTA do this work for yourself, or it's just esoteric theory)...

Cmaj7
Chord is C E G B. Those notes are in the C Major scale, and the G major scale, so if you start the C scale on C, it's C Ionian, if you start the G scale on C it's C Lydian. Next key around the circle is D, and that's got a C#, so none of the sharp keys will work. Going back the other way 'round the circle is F, and that's got a Bb, so none of the flat keys work. Therefore you're left with modes coming from the C major scale and G major scale. Now, do you want the effect that the #4 gives you from the Lydian?

But, I just go straight to the chord tones as my target notes, and passing tones can be either chromatic or diatonic- depends on what I'm after. Because I'm not thinking of passing tones as limited to specific keys, modes are pretty pointless to playing chordal music. Modes only make sense in modal music. Vamping on Dmin7 to G? OK, that's modal because even though it's a ii V in C, you never go to C, and C ain't the key center. But, if you're playing through a series of changes that include Dmin7 to G, then I'm thinking "D F AC" and "G B D F" but I'm also looking at the F# as a great passing tone, etc.

John

+1

[Kobaia]

Originally Posted by raymondl3

C Ionian: CDEFGABC Cma, C6, Cma7, Cma9
D Dorian DEFGABCD Dmi, D-6, D-7, D-9, D-11
E Phrygian EFGABCDE Emi, E-7#5, E-7, E-11, Esusb9
F Lydian FGABCDEF Fma, F6, Fma7, Fma7b5, Fma9
G Mixolydian GABCDEFG Gma, G6, G7, G9
A Aeolian ABCDEFGA Ami, A-7#5, A-9, A-11
B Locrian BCDEFGAB Bdim, B-7b5

I honestly kinda have a problem with this.
I personally look at it this way.

Imaj Imaj6 Imaj7 IMaj9 Imaj13 - Major
II- II-7 II-9 II-13 - Dorian
II- III-7 III-11 - ANY MINOR
ANY MAJOR OTHER THAN Imaj - Lydian
V7 - Myxolydian
VI- V-7 VI-9 VI-11 - Any Minor
min7b5 - Locrian nat9
II-6 - Melodic Minor
V7b9 - Myxo b9 b13
V7b9 b13 - Altered or Symmetrical Dominant
V7#11 - Lydian Dominant
V7b9 #11(b5) - Altered or Symmetrical dominant
ANY FULLY DIMINISHED - Symmetrical diminished
bVII7 - Lydian Dominant

A lot of these are dependent of the chords that surround it, but a while ago i charted out all the common chords you see in jazz i think there are only like 15-20 or so and there are just about 32 common scales.

[dpbass66]

Originally Posted by JTE

For example (but you GOTTA do this work for yourself, or it's just esoteric theory)...

Cmaj7
Chord is C E G B. Those notes are in the C Major scale, and the G major scale, so if you start the C scale on C, it's C Ionian, if you start the G scale on C it's C Lydian. Next key around the circle is D, and that's got a C#, so none of the sharp keys will work. Going back the other way 'round the circle is F, and that's got a Bb, so none of the flat keys work. Therefore you're left with modes coming from the C major scale and G major scale. Now, do you want the effect that the #4 gives you from the Lydian?

But, I just go straight to the chord tones as my target notes, and passing tones can be either chromatic or diatonic- depends on what I'm after. Because I'm not thinking of passing tones as limited to specific keys, modes are pretty pointless to playing chordal music. Modes only make sense in modal music. Vamping on Dmin7 to G? OK, that's modal because even though it's a ii V in C, you never go to C, and C ain't the key center. But, if you're playing through a series of changes that include Dmin7 to G, then I'm thinking "D F AC" and "G B D F" but I'm also looking at the F# as a great passing tone, etc.

John

Not sure if we are talking about forming bass lines here or improvising solos, but alot of the harmonic application is the same.

Just about all western music is chordal, though there are exceptions. The "modal" music we talk about is just our term for somewhat harmonically static tunes like "So What", Miles Davis. It is still based on a few chords. If you focus on just basic 7th "chords" instead of scales, to play more harmonically complex tunes you are limiting yourself. I know you fill in the gaps with the passing tones, but the other notes in a specific scale offer you those tasty upper partials. Great improvisors employ a variety of ideas on all types of tunes, whether modal, not modal, blues, rhythm changes, one chord vamps, etc.. Besides, as was pointed out in another post, if you extend any chord out to its upper partials (extensions) you end up with the same group of notes that exists within the scale that "matches" the chord. So, I suppose you might say you choose to play intervallically, rather than linearly.

Personally, I tend to think of scales/chords as "sonorities". Each scale/chord represents a certain sound. The lydian scale is a Major 7 #11 chord and it is a certain sonority (sound), that is disctinct from just a plain major chord. I think it sounds hip to play that sound over a Major chord, usually, as long as the 4th (11th) of the chord is not being voiced for some reason....you just decide to do or not do that on the fly. The modes of the melodic minor scale offer some really cool "modern" sounds when applied correctly. A part of you practice in improvisation should include ear training to be able to instantaneously hear/identify what all this stuff sounds like.

Listen to Michael Brecker solo over one chord, he is superimposing all kinds of stuff over that one sonority (chord), and while he is probably one of the foremost improvisers of our time, all decent players do this. There is no absolute wrong or right its all how you place things and how you resolve them. An improvisation can start out 1 step up from the chord...playing D7 over C7 momentarily...only to resolve to the C7....how does that work?

I dont know if you were offering just some basic advice, but on dm7 to G7 I can think of 5 different ideas to play on that, not just what you stated, which is perfectly acceptable too. I just want to point out that this whole improvising thing is a very precise-imprecise endeavor which ultimately amounts to what sounds good. It isnt as formulaic as it may appear, though while just learning it is hugely beneficial to understand the nuts and bolts, and the few absolutes.

[JTE]

Well, that's my point. The chord tones are guides, and there's a ton of other ways to approach it. Modes don't seem to add anything useful to the discussion. The concept of limiting oneself to Ionian or Lydian because those modes "go" with a major 7 chord instead of seeing the chord tones as your important notes for the bassline, but those upper partials, chromatic passing tones, etc. all are available.

John

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

Because I'm not thinking of passing tones as limited to specific keys, modes are pretty pointless to playing chordal music.

On the dot as always.

As long as people fail to see that contradiction, all discussion on modes is equally pointless.

Modes are restricted to the diatonic system. As soon as you start using altered (chromatic, non-diatonic) notes, you're in a different competition.

[mambo4]

+1 to JTE.
The idea that Chord X means you play Scales P,D or Q is not nearly as practical an approach as using Harmonic knowledge (chord tones) and your ear & stylistic knowledge (passing tones).

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Chris K

On the dot as always.

As long as people fail to see that contradiction, all discussion on modes is equally pointless.

Modes are restricted to the diatonic system. As soon as you start using altered (chromatic, non-diatonic) notes, you're in a different competition.

I totally disagree with this and this is why Modes are so misunderstood on TB.

Say that to Mile Davis that modes are just for diatonic system,he would had blow his horn in your face.

Modes are scales that are built from the notes of these scales to give a new structure of intervals to play with AND to form specific chords from them. When you altered chords then you pick the altered scale for an example based on the melodic minor scale that gives you all the notes and chord tones that you need to play a bassline or to play a solo. This is still a mode, same with all the others chords we play in music.

The problem is that all the modes based on the major scale and the harmonic minor scale have their specific function in harmony and this is a must to respect and understand up to a certain degree (no puns intended).

When I decide to play the C major scale over a ii-v-i in Amin or in E min it is my choice to play that mode or scale over a different set of chords because there is a relationship between them to my ears and my knowledge of the harmony. But I'm still play a mode or scale to bring a diatonic sound to my solo.

To me it is essential that bass players know the relationship between Chords and Modes before breaking them. When this is understood it will make sense to bring the other notes in a efficient way, not before!

[powellmacaque]

I don't get the "modes aren't diatonic" part. But I'm a theory noob, hence this thread.

If I'm playing a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression, why can't I play a bassline that incorporated the aeolian, dorian, mixolydian, and iolian modes, respectively?

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

I don't get the "modes aren't diatonic" part. But I'm a theory noob, hence this thread.

If I'm playing a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression, why can't I play a bassline that incorporated the aeolian, dorian, mixolydian, and iolian modes, respectively?

You got it! That is exactly it!!!

This is how modes are used in all the Western music. I'm not talking country music here but all the major or minor tonalities that this part of the world's music is based on.