Circle of 4th rather than 5ths?

[bigthemat]

I don't know if you guys notice this, but everywhere I see in theory or lessons or anywhere with mention of the Circle of 5ths, they never mention the benefits of 4ths.

I think it is better to use 4ths. Seeing how ii-V-I progressions are very common, if you know the cirlce of 4ths, you know every ii-V-I.

Also, I notice relationships better in 4ths, not 5ths. It might just be the way my mind works...


Just a couple of thoughts. What do you guys think?

[cowsgomoo]

they're just two sides of the same coin really, C-F-Bb-Eb etc is just the descending/upside down version of C-G-D etc...

like a palindrome or something

personally, 5ths make more sense to me as, to my ear, a perfect cadence is THE defining musical brushstroke that so much else springs from... and I always think of that as the root of the V dropping down a fifth, not going up a fourth... but whatever works for you, works for you

[sir juice]

+1

It's exactly the same circle, but one is the other one backwards.

I like the circle of 4ths as I was always taught that all Dom7 chords want to resolve a 4th above, which makes life easier seeing as we're tuned in 4ths.

[Johnny StingRay]

On Carol Kaye's website she says that the jazz and studio musicians never called it the "Circle Of Fifths", they just called it "The Cycle" and they were referring to it going by fourths because of the ii - V - I progression so common in standard jazz music. As a matter of fact, she says that when going through it by fifths, it's called the "back cycle". Carol recommends practicing playing through the cycle to tune your ear to hearing the ii - V - I changes so they become habit and when you improvise you don't have to think about it, you just automatically play when you hear it.
Anyways, whatever it's called, it's neat how it works out going fifths or fourths.
Peace, Johnny

[projectMalamute]

Well, what is the interval between C and G?

If you answered a perfect 5th you are correct.

If you answered a perfect 4th you are also correct.

Circle of 5ths is probably more common, I've heard both.

Outside of this Carol Kaye reference I have never heard anyone call it 'the cycle'. If you are communicating with specialists in music theory I would not use that term. Maybe it's a west coast jazz thing, it's not something you will find in an academic paper.

[jar546]

If you answered a perfect 5th you are correct.

If you answered a perfect 4th you are also correct.

Yes, just ask any country bass player

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

Well, what is the interval between C and G?

If you answered a perfect 5th you are correct.

If you answered a perfect 4th you are also correct.

Circle of 5ths is probably more common, I've heard both.

Outside of this Carol Kaye reference I have never heard anyone call it 'the cycle'. If you are communicating with specialists in music theory I would not use that term. Maybe it's a west coast jazz thing, it's not something you will find in an academic paper.

I suppose. In accademic places the interval between a C and G is a 5th, but a 4th would be between a G and a C. The thinking there is to always measure an interval from the lowest note up.

"The cycle" is probably not used in accademic places other than some vague reference to Wagner. In both accademic and commerical worlds "The circle" is pretty much understood IME.

[Mark Wilson]

Since I'm at school for Jazz, i've never really thought about the benefits of either. You should be able to quickly and accurately play both, IMO.

But, in exercises, I play 4ths because of the II-V-I progressions.

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

But, in exercises, I play 4ths because of the II-V-I progressions.

+1

When I run scales through all 12 keys, I like to go through the routine in 4ths as it engages my mind and ear, rather than just sliding the whole fingering up one fret at a time, which is mindlessly repetitive. Also, this really helps keep the entire fingerboard in mind...hehe, works for me too.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Since I'm at school for Jazz, i've never really thought about the benefits of either. You should be able to quickly and accurately play both, IMO.

But, in exercises, I play 4ths because of the II-V-I progressions.

That POV is pretty typical of jazz programs, in fact circle of 4ths is something I hear from jazz types more than anywhere else. My only point is that going up a 4th and going down a 5th gives you the same set of notes. We are not talking about intervals in an abstract sense here but about relationships between chords and keys. Most harmony texts will characterize G7 to C as moving down a 5th, not up a 4th. People would know what you meant if you phrased it either way. I would not expect anyone to have any idea what you mean if you start talking about the 'back cycle'.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

they're just two sides of the same coin really, C-F-Bb-Eb etc is just the descending/upside down version of C-G-D etc...

Exactly!

When running through ii - V7 - I exersises I will either:

go up a fourth and down a fifth, or
go down a fifth and up a fourth, or
go down a fifth and down another fifth, or
or go up a fourth and up another fourth

[DocBop]

I don't see why all the hang up over a label. G->C is V-I no matter if you go up or down. All the intervals invert (and add up to 9.) So Up a 4th or Down a 5th (4+5=9). Up a 3rd, down a 6th. Up a 2nd down a 7th. Up an Octave (8) or down unison (1).

Also the Carol Kaye "Cycle" she was probably talking about Back-Cycling something arrangers and Jazz players do to add life to a chord progression. Basic rule of comp'ing you can always preceed a chord, by its own V7. Backcycling just pushes that rule out further.

Simply put they proceed a chord, by a Back-cycling dominant 7th chords from the Circle of Fifths that proceed the chord in the circle. So if they were going to go to a C chord they might proceed it with A7. D7, G7 to C. A popular sound is doing it with Tritone subs. So it would be Eb7, D7, Db7, C. Player's to simplify the term just shorten it to "Cycling."

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by projectMalamute

That POV is pretty typical of jazz programs, in fact circle of 4ths is something I hear from jazz types more than anywhere else. My only point is that going up a 4th and going down a 5th gives you the same set of notes. We are not talking about intervals in an abstract sense here but about relationships between chords and keys. Most harmony texts will characterize G7 to C as moving down a 5th, not up a 4th. People would know what you meant if you phrased it either way. I would not expect anyone to have any idea what you mean if you start talking about the 'back cycle'.

Yep. I agree with you.
None the less, I still say both are beneficial, and both should be known flawlessly

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by DocBop

I don't see why all the hang up over a label. G->C is V-I no matter if you go up or down. All the intervals invert (and add up to 9.) So Up a 4th or Down a 5th (4+5=9). Up a 3rd, down a 6th. Up a 2nd down a 7th. Up an Octave (8) or down unison (1).

Sure that's true (in practice). But there are some times when it can make a difference (in theory).

If you want to build a chord in fourths starting on C you'll have C F Bb Eb Ab. Build a chord in fifths starting on C and you'll have have C G D A E. Very different sounds.

If a singer asked that you take a song up a fourth from C and you play in G and the rest of the band plays in F.... there could be further discussion.

If someone asks what the 11th of a C chord is and the answer given is that 'its a fourth away from the root', is it an F or a G?

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Sure that's true (in practice). But there are some times when it can make a difference (in theory).

If you want to build a chord in fourths starting on C you'll have C F Bb Eb Ab. Build a chord in fifths starting on C and you'll have have C G D A E. Very different sounds.

If a singer asked that you take a song up a fourth from C and you play in G and the rest of the band plays in F.... there could be further discussion.

If someone asks what the 11th of a C chord is and the answer given is that 'its a fourth away from the root', is it an F or a G?

up a 4th is clear. f is up a 4th from c. g is down a 4th from c. the 11th of a c chord is equally clear. if you say what is a 4th away from c it is not clear. both f and g are a 4th away from c.

[Sahm]

When I was at O.S.U. (Ohio) the jazz department used the Cycle of 4th's while the classical department used the Circle of 5th's. The jazzer's got that the Cycle was just the Circle backwards, but they still wanted you to differentiate. It has to do with witht the common progressions in jazz. One of Columbus' old jazz legends, Cornell Wiley, explained to me further that: The bass is based on 4 strings, tuned in 4ths, using four fingers on the left hand to play with- so the Cycle of 4th's is just natural!

Of course, you can argue anything you want, but I still practice scales and chords moving along the Cycle of 4ths!

[Kobaia]

i've always heard it refered to as the circle of resolving dominants

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Sure that's true (in practice). But there are some times when it can make a difference (in theory).

If you want to build a chord in fourths starting on C you'll have C F Bb Eb Ab. Build a chord in fifths starting on C and you'll have have C G D A E. Very different sounds.

If a singer asked that you take a song up a fourth from C and you play in G and the rest of the band plays in F.... there could be further discussion.

If someone asks what the 11th of a C chord is and the answer given is that 'its a fourth away from the root', is it an F or a G?

Playing Devils Advocate....

When doing quartal harmony and other symmetric harmony they are built down from melody, so direction is known.

In singer example up did say UP a fourth.

The 11th they are talking about the scale degree.

Bottom line many terms in music are overloaded, in other words the context defines which definition to use.

[Johnny StingRay]

My apologies. I was just reiterating what Carol Kaye teaches and I figure if anyone knows anything about bass, it would be her. Who else out there can match her credentials? Well, whatever you call it I just play. When I'm playing I'm thinking about all kinds of stuff, like "man that blonde out in the audience looks hot", or "man, next break I gotta take a piss and grab a beer", I'm for sure not thinking, "Well I must play through my Circle of Fifths, and my left hand middle finger has to be pushing at the 8th fret of the D string on the third beat of the eighteenth measure of this song.........." Not!
Peace, Johnny

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by Johnny StingRay

My apologies. I was just reiterating what Carol Kaye teaches and I figure if anyone knows anything about bass, it would be her. Who else out there can match her credentials? Well, whatever you call it I just play. When I'm playing I'm thinking about all kinds of stuff, like "man that blonde out in the audience looks hot", or "man, next break I gotta take a piss and grab a beer", I'm for sure not thinking, "Well I must play through my Circle of Fifths, and my left hand middle finger has to be pushing at the 8th fret of the D string on the third beat of the eighteenth measure of this song.........." Not!
Peace, Johnny

of course Carol Kaye knows of what she speaks, she played bass on Bernadette.

sorry, ability to play what Brian Wilson tells her to by rote or not, Carol Kaye is full of crap.