Circle of Fifths Question

[E2daGGurl]

Gotcha now! I've been studying the natural minor scale and could not for the life of me remember that the relative minor starts down a third. Now I get it (and feel dumb, but that's how I learn).

And the second paragraph makes perfect sense, now that I get the first one. THANKS.

I want to be able to get it without having to refer to anything - it's going slowly, but that helped.

[Moondance360]

I don't guess that anybody has thought about flattening out the circle of fifths.

I charted this out for myself about 30 years ago. I use this chart to transpose keys, build chords and scales and such. Pretty basic, but I thought it would make understanding basic theory a little easier for some people.

1. Column 1 is the Major keys. Rows contain the major scales.
2.Column 5 contains the next key in the Circle...hence the name Circle of Fifths
3. Column 6 shows the Relative Minor Keys
4. For key signatures...just count the number of sharps or flats in each row, Do not count the ones in column 8 as they are the same as column 1
5. The first five Keys are called the"Five Easy Keys" as these are the easiest keys to play in and transpose and such. You'll find that most popular songs are written in one of these Keys.

[baddarryl]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

Maybe one is for left handed people. No, it doesn't matter in any technical sense, as long as you learn to read one and stick with it.

If you want to read the one that most other people are using, F will be to the left of C - and to me, that tells me right away that it's the shorter interval,(4th) for some reason left means less to mean - and G should be to the right of C, which is the 5th.

However, once you realize why it's a circle, you'll see right away that F - back to C, is 5 intervals just as it should be (reading clockwise), and all is right with the world

I've never seen one that goes in four intervals to the right, but if it did, it would still work (but seem totally backwards in my mind). You'd read it counter-clockwise to find the fifths and clockwise for the fourths. I do not know why you would want to learn it this way though.

That is the way the Mel Bay book has it and it threw me off at first. Thanks.

[Jake of Bass]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

Maybe one is for left handed people. No, it doesn't matter in any technical sense, as long as you learn to read one and stick with it.

If you want to read the one that most other people are using, F will be to the left of C - and to me, that tells me right away that it's the shorter interval,(4th) for some reason left means less to mean - and G should be to the right of C, which is the 5th.

However, once you realize why it's a circle, you'll see right away that F - back to C, is 5 intervals just as it should be (reading clockwise), and all is right with the world

I've never seen one that goes in four intervals to the right, but if it did, it would still work (but seem totally backwards in my mind). You'd read it counter-clockwise to find the fifths and clockwise for the fourths. I do not know why you would want to learn it this way though.

Different strokes for different folks. I was taught to read it ascending in fourths, and quite often I'll descend in fourths instead of ascending in fifths. But whatever works for you is best

[Fergie Fulton]

A reletive Minor is 3 semi-tones below Major. A reletive Major is three Semi-tones above the Minor. Using terms like minor 3rd to describe the interval just adds to the confusion.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

A reletive Minor is 3 semi-tones below Major. A reletive Major is three Semi-tones above the Minor. Using terms like minor 3rd to describe the interval just adds to the confusion.

No, major and minor third are the official, proper, no-question-about-it, sure-fire, can't lose, dictionary, provable and no BS terms for the distance between the roots of relative keys.

There is no confusion there. Intervals are about as basic as music theory can get.

[Fergie Fulton]

[quote=E2daGGurl;6703348]What does this last sentence mean? Can anyone take just that part about "minor third below" and explain it? How does a minor third get below the major key? Isn't the third the third, regardless of whether it's above or below the root? What am I missing?

Looks like confusion to me due to the use of the word minor in the wrong context.

[DocBop]

[quote=Fergie Fulton;6731550]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

What does this last sentence mean? Can anyone take just that part about "minor third below" and explain it? How does a minor third get below the major key? Isn't the third the third, regardless of whether it's above or below the root? What am I missing?

Looks like confusion to me due to the use of the word minor in the wrong context.

It is the right context. Take the key of C major and its Relative Minor A minor. The distance from the notes C DOWN TO A is a minor 3rd. Think of your fretboard and distance of a minor 3rd down from a note. I think where you might be getting off is this is down and not up.

[Fergie Fulton]

The interval is 3 semi -tones, regardless of Major, Minor, key, mode, etc.

The fact a Minor 3rd is three semi-tones is a handy way to describe the interval to find a reletive Minor from a Major. But where confusion comes in, students assume you reverse this and a Major 3rd will find a reletive Major.

Sorry the interval is what it is... three semi-tones.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

The interval is 3 semi -tones, regardless of Major, Minor, key, mode, etc.

The fact a Minor 3rd is three semi-tones is a handy way to describe the interval to find a reletive Minor from a Major. But where confusion comes in, students assume you reverse this and a Major 3rd will find a reletive Major.

Sorry the interval is what it is... three semi-tones.

A minor third is a minor third regardless of key or mode or whatever, same thing with major thirds, augmented 2nds, diminished 12ths, whatever. Describing intervals in terms of semi-tones can be useful, I guess, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a minor third. And the fact that a student might confuse this interval with the major/minor tonal system doesn't take away from this fact - it is a semantic confusion that can be cleared up with one sentence of explanation.

[Fergie Fulton]

Yes it is a minor 3rd, it is also a tone and a half, it is also a a flattened major 3rd, etc. Its true nature to avoid confusion is three semi-tones. A minor third, a tone and a half, etc is is how it can be applied. Remember i said on a similar post that "music has an order and laws"... thats to avoid this very thing..confusion.

Here's a little of my background on this subject, i studied music theory from The Associated Boards of the Royal Schools of Music and finished in 1977 as part of my classical training. That was the bench mark for music theory. Sounds grand but trust me there are 12 year old kids that nail this stuff in a blink of an eye. I just did not realise how good my education was till i became a pro.

I just had a look on there web site and over 600,000 students from 90 countries sit there exams which will deal with theory of music, not bass or guitar but music so i reckon its still a good bench mark today. Not a bad place to start if anybody wants to learn music theory from the start.. properly. www.abrsm.org

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Yes it is a minor 3rd, it is also a tone and a half, it is also a a flattened major 3rd, etc. Its true nature to avoid confusion is three semi-tones. A minor third, a tone and a half, etc is is how it can be applied. Remember i said on a similar post that "music has an order and laws"... thats to avoid this very thing..confusion.

Here's a little of my background on this subject, i studied music theory from The Associated Boards of the Royal Schools of Music and finished in 1977 as part of my classical training. That was the bench mark for music theory. Sounds grand but trust me there are 12 year old kids that nail this stuff in a blink of an eye. I just did not realise how good my education was till i became a pro.

I just had a look on there web site and over 600,000 students from 90 countries sit there exams which will deal with theory of music, not bass or guitar but music so i reckon its still a good bench mark today. Not a bad place to start if anybody wants to learn music theory from the start.. properly. www.abrsm.org

LOL. Whatever you say dude. You can also do math on your fingers until you get a result that's over ten and then you kind of have a problem.

Counting half-steps (or semi-tones for you French guys) is what we do in the very basic music fundamental classes here in the United States. After it is agreed that all minor thirds have three semi-tones then we just discuss intervals as what they are, not their constituents. If you need you count half-steps and adjust your beads then I guess that works for you.

I propose that from now on we discuss all theory-related items in terms of half-steps to avoid confusion. Also, I think we should discuss all things financial in terms of cents, all measurements of distance in terms on inches and all matters of language in terms of phonemes and then everything will be crystal clear.

[Fergie Fulton]

This post is about learning once we have learned we move on. What we have on forms like this are lots of levels, beginers to experienced in the ways of theory. What works for you is cool but its not the same for everyone. We are dealing with basic fundamentals are we not Onlyclave?

The narrowness of you proposel suggests that we all uses cents, count in feet and inches, and all speak English when clearly we don't on this forum. Sorry Onlyclave but the USA is not the only country that has bass players, so i say no to you ill thought out idea.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

This post is about learning once we have learned we move on. What we have on forms like this are lots of levels, beginers to experienced in the ways of theory. What works for you is cool but its not the same for everyone. We are dealing with basic fundamentals are we not Onlyclave?

The narrowness of you proposel suggests that we all uses cents, count in feet and inches, and all speak English when clearly we don't on this forum. Sorry Onlyclave but the USA is not the only country that has bass players, so i say no to you ill thought out idea.

Counting half-steps must be The Metric System.

So how do you propose we discuss chords? A minor seventh chord is a root, 3 semitones, 7 semitones and 10 semitones? This is, after all, basic fundamentals.

[Fergie Fulton]

No counting half steps can be used in timing, which means it can be used in programing a drum machine ie. 4 step, 8 step, 16 step etc.

Some people think that if you half step a crotchet you get a quaver, which is true but not correct, so half step can mean many things in music but a semi-tone means only one thing...half a tone, and a tone is an interval, an interval is the difference in pitch between two notes, pitch is the frequency of the note and two means there is another note in relation to the other one.

So no its not metric its music theory, basic music theory at that if you have to ask.

[Jake of Bass]

Geez guys, talk about arguing semantics.

Just cause someone uses one form of terminology to desribe something than yourself doesn't make it any less correct. You say potato, I say potato. Arguing the descriptors when the concept remains the same isn't really being on topic here.

For the record though the imperial system is well outdated to be sure. Metric is so much more universal

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

This post is about learning once we have learned we move on. What we have on forms like this are lots of levels, beginers to experienced in the ways of theory. What works for you is cool but its not the same for everyone. We are dealing with basic fundamentals are we not Onlyclave?

The narrowness of you proposel suggests that we all uses cents, count in feet and inches, and all speak English when clearly we don't on this forum. Sorry Onlyclave but the USA is not the only country that has bass players, so i say no to you ill thought out idea.

We're not arguing something purely dialectical like "crotchets and quavers v. quarter notes/eighth notes." And nobody is arguing that a minor third doesn't equal three half steps/semitones/minor 2nds/frets on the fretboard. This isn't an ethnocentric conversation. What onlyclave (and myself) are challenging is the idea that you need to understand everything purely in a fundamental way. Nobody looks at chord symbols and thinks of them in terms of the individual half-steps between notes. If we're looking at analogies, nobody (no looks at the distance of 4 miles and thinks of it instead as 21,120 feet or better yet, 253,440 inches (or, for the metric people out there, immediately converting kilometers to centimeters). Once the fundamentals are mastered, why would somebody continue to explain themselves on that level of thinking when more sophisticated systems are in place (the system of intervals) Do you think that master improvisers are constantly thinking what the number of semitones between two notes in an improvisation are, and then making sure that the interval that results works with the chord that they're playing on, and is part of the chord/scale or arpeggio they might be playing off of? Or do you think they've mastered all of that stuff to the point they don't have to think of it and just play?

[Richard Lindsey]

If we really want to descend to this level of nitpicking, then it has to be said that "minor 3rd" is not just an equally correct but in fact a slightly MORE correct way of describing the distance between the roots of a major scale and its relative minor than "three semitones" is. The reason is that "three semitones" can also describe an augmented 2nd (such as C to D#) or a diminished 4th (such as C to Fb). Although both of those intervals exist, neither one is a correct way of describing the distance between a major key and its relative minor. The only correct distance between the two is a minor 3rd. C minor is not the relative minor of D# major, it is the relative minor of Eb major. That's a point that's worth preserving.

And anyway, as HaVIC5 points out, a big part of the reason for using terms like "3rd" and "5th" and so forth is precisely so that you don't HAVE to use expressions like "three semitones." Just as we use the term "foot" so we don't have to say "12 inches." Or, if you prefer, "meter" so we don't have to say "1000 millimeters" or "100 centimeters" or whatever.

[legalbassics]

This discussion is quite helpful to someone like me who is trying to figure out why music "works."

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

If we really want to descend to this level of nitpicking, then it has to be said that "minor 3rd" is not just an equally correct but in fact a slightly MORE correct way of describing the distance between the roots of a major scale and its relative minor than "three semitones" is. The reason is that "three semitones" can also describe an augmented 2nd (such as C to D#) or a diminished 4th (such as C to Fb). Although both of those intervals exist, neither one is a correct way of describing the distance between a major key and its relative minor. The only correct distance between the two is a minor 3rd. C minor is not the relative minor of D# major, it is the relative minor of Eb major. That's a point that's worth preserving.

And anyway, as HaVIC5 points out, a big part of the reason for using terms like "3rd" and "5th" and so forth is precisely so that you don't HAVE to use expressions like "three semitones." Just as we use the term "foot" so we don't have to say "12 inches." Or, if you prefer, "meter" so we don't have to say "1000 millimeters" or "100 centimeters" or whatever.

Great post. This shows the problems that will occur when things are out of context. Since there is no D# major scale it cannot be the reletive Major of C Minor, so why use it in this context.
Why can't we have a D#major scale?
Think about the answer and the consequences of what would happen if there was one in music theory and we will get closer to the reason why three semi-tones is used to describe the interval.
And yes 12 inches is a foot, but what happens to measurements when we don't land on exactly a foot or an inch? I suggest if you don't know you won't make correct measurements unless you can break it down further fractions.

And thats what i'm saying how you use the information in day to day life is not the same as you would in profesional life. But if you are going to teach, teach correctly and let students find their way to apply it.