Circle of fifths question

[Truktek2]

How do I apply this theory to my playing? I am able to play in fifths and fourths along the entire fretboard, but I am at a loss as to how this would improve my playing. If I understand it correctly, it enables me to "go home" and resolve a phrase the best way, for a given note, but I'm not quite sure what that means. Enlighten me please.

[mambo4]

The circle of fifths has almost nothing to do with playing the intervals of a 4th and a 5th on the neck.

The circle of fifths is a way of looking at common chord progression, when the roots of the chords are moving in 5ths and 4ths...so if all you are playing root notes to the chords of the song (never a bad idea) then your bass line will be moving as you describe..so it's not too helpful in that sense.

It will help your playing beyond that only if you already grasp the basics of how to harmonize a major scale , and see chord progressions as they relate to the key of that scale/song. All that "I -IV-V" and "ii-V7" roman numeral stuff. Do a search here for " harmonizing the major scale" and you'll get a ton of hits, it comes up all the time.

And the only real insight the circle of fifths provides in reguard to chords is this: Chords very often move in 4ths and 5ths. " understanding" the circle of 5ths is only truly useful in as much as it requires that you first "understand" -as in use in your bass lines -the other stuff that relates to it: harmony, chord tones, scales etc.

[funkybass]

The circle of fifths is a way to organize sharps and flats. Starting on C, which is all natural notes. Moving clockwise,one sharp is added to the 7th degree. Each new key keeps the old sharp(s) and adds a new one. Moving from c counterclockwise and now you are moving in fourth intravels. Now you are adding a flat to the fourth scale degree. You can practice scales,arpeggios, etc. Moving around the circle.

[mambo4]

Funky bass is also correct. Theory students are taught early on to "use" the circle of fifths to figure out which accidentals to use for a given key.

[FretlessMainly]

To pick up on what Mambo wrote, the circle of fifths is very prevalent in many forms of music, but especially jazz. Even if you don't care about jazz or want to play it, the theory can come in very handy when trying to write chord progressions. And that theory is part and parcel of a large percentage of popular music.

Think about starting on the note E and using the circle of fifths. Because of how an octave is divided, going down a fifth is the same as going up a fourth; you arrive at the same place. So, using your open strings to start, you can play the cycle of fifths as single notes. The first note is the fifth of the note that follows it: E A D G C.

Now turn that into a jazz pattern: Emin7 A7 Dmin7 G7 CMAJ. One of the most common patterns in jazz. The Emin7 A7 are ii v of the Dmin and the Dmin7 G7 are II V of CMAJ.

Now, I realize that this is probably moving ahead pretty fast, but it highlights a fundamental example of how the circle of fifths forms the basis for so much music. I also made my example a bit easier by removing some accuracy, as someone here may point out, but I thought it best to make it as basic as possible.

[mambo4]

One example of using this, perhaps:
Suppose you learn a riff and you know it's a "C major" riff. So it works in the key of C, and/or when the chord you are supporting is C major Chord. Now your teacher/book/you tube vid says "practice this in all 12 keys."

So you know you could just move up the neck fret by fret, and play it starting on C, C#, D, D# etc. But what are the chances you actually need to string the riffs together that way to play song? Pretty slim.

Since chords most commonly move in 4ths and 5ths, you gain more by practicing riffs around the circle, or fragments of it. You will way more songs with G maj, Cmaj, F maj or E, A, D

But this must be tempered with the knowledge of harmonizing the major scale and how it determines what flavor the chords are (as in Major, minor, dominant, etc) as they move around the circle in various keys.

[Frohman]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Now turn that into a jazz pattern: Emin7 A7 Dmin7 G7 CMAJ. One of the most common patterns in jazz. The Emin7 A7 are ii v of the Dmin and the Dmin7 G7 are II V of CMAJ.

Actually, it's just common to exchange the G7 with Db7, the tritone of the dominant. With that you get two guide notes, one from above and one from down below C, so it's much more potent than the G7.

[Truktek2]

Originally Posted by mambo4

The circle of fifths has almost nothing to do with playing the intervals of a 4th and a 5th on the neck.

The circle of fifths is a way of looking at common chord progression, when the roots of the chords are moving in 5ths and 4ths...so if all you are playing root notes to the chords of the song (never a bad idea) then your bass line will be moving as you describe..so it's not too helpful in that sense.

It will help your playing beyond that only if you already grasp the basics of how to harmonize a major scale , and see chord progressions as they relate to the key of that scale/song. All that "I -IV-V" and "ii-V7" roman numeral stuff. Do a search here for " harmonizing the major scale" and you'll get a ton of hits, it comes up all the time.

And the only real insight the circle of fifths provides in reguard to chords is this: Chords very often move in 4ths and 5ths. " understanding" the circle of 5ths is only truly useful in as much as it requires that you first "understand" -as in use in your bass lines -the other stuff that relates to it: harmony, chord tones, scales etc.

Thanks I will look into it. I had started harmonizing scales and found that my basslines were quite boring, until someone suggested concentrating on modes. When I did that I found that it was much easier to get away from the "scale mentality" if you will, and be more creative. Not really sure how that applies to my original question. For example if I had a progression of F Fm C A7 i could play (correct me if I'm wrong) mixolydian dorian ionian ionian. I was just confused as to how the circle comes into play. I guess I'll have to look further into what you said so I can ask my questions more intelligently.

[Truktek2]

Thanks to everyone else who responded. Just have to let the info digest before I ask anymore questions.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

How do I apply this theory to my playing? I am able to play in fifths and fourths along the entire fretboard, but I am at a loss as to how this would improve my playing. If I understand it correctly, it enables me to "go home" and resolve a phrase the best way, for a given note, but I'm not quite sure what that means. Enlighten me please. :help:

The circle is a chart that can be used to help us remember our theory. One of those things is what leads to what or put another way what resolves back home.
Pull up a circle of 5th. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CC4Q9QEwAw First thing that helps is the chart is a circle - turn it to where your tonic is at 12:00 O'clock.
If your tonic is G what is to the left? It's C. What is to the right? D is to the right. Our ole friend I IV V or G-C-D.
And we all know that I IV V is a great work anywhere progression IF we then return home to the I. So if you need to peek and see what makes up a I IV V on E -- help yourself.

Notice what is at 1:00 O'clock -- It's G. How many sharps will the G scale have? One. What's at 7 O'clock? Go look. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBoQ9QEwAQ How many sharps in C#? Notice the bottom gets a little crowded, ask yourself why? Hint - there are 7 flats also.

Got several measures with the same chord and you would like to insert something. Look at the circle and what leads to your next chord? Insert what leads to the next chord. It'll work and sound great. Writing a bass line - end your forth note bass line with the note that leads to the next chord, i.e. the next chord's fifth. Yep, take a peek.
If we have something like this; |D///|////|////|G///| what leads to G? Insert it in the measure before G, what leads to to it? Insert it in the other measure. That took us to backcycling. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...hp/t-8383.html The circle is full of great things - we just have to know how to read the circle.

Here is a little something on what chords like to go where.

• The I tonic likes to go anywhere in the progression, however, when you go to the I tonic chord you have resolved all the tension you have built up. Do you really want to resolve at this point?
• ii chord likes to go to a dominant chord. The ii is a sub-dominant, as is the IV, so the ii and the IV sub for each other and their task in life is to move the progression to the V or viidim which are the dominant chords.
• iii chord likes to move to the vi and this combination makes a great move to somewhere or turn-a-round combination. More on that later.
• IV chord likes to move to a dominant chord. Remember it's a sub-dominant chord like the ii chord.
• V chord is a dominant chord and likes to move to the tonic I chord. When we add a seventh as in V7 it really wants to do it right now. The V7 is your climax chord. Once you reach climax much after that is anti-climatic. Now the viidim cord is also a dominant chord and it too likes to move to the tonic chord, however, it is not in a hurry to do so. So -- if you want to get back to the tonic chord right now use the V7, however if you want to get to the tonic through a turn-a-round then start with the viidim then go to the iii let it take you to the vi, then go to the ii, V7, I.
• We have not talked about the vi chord. The vi chord likes to move to a sub-dominant chord.
• If we let the chords move where they like to go good things normally happen.

Why do we want to move the verse along using a proven progression? Because the story the verse is telling is written in such a way as to keep your interest. It can - does not have to - start with the I chord. If that is the way the verse starts it is said to be at rest with the I chord, we then move the verse to tension, making it interesting, by moving to the IV chord. The story being told by the verse should by now be moving on to the climax and it can if we use the V7 chord. Where does the V7 like to go? Yep, to the I tonic chord and back to rest. Rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest - that's written a bunch of music.

Have fun.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Frohman

Actually, it's just common to exchange the G7 with Db7, the tritone of the dominant. With that you get two guide notes, one from above and one from down below C, so it's much more potent than the G7.

I'm fully aware of this, but the point of this thread is the circle of fifths and introducing the concept of tritone substitution during the introduction of the circle of fifths seems more than a bit premature.

[Truktek2]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

The circle is a chart that can be used to help us remember our theory. One of those things is what leads to what or put another way what resolves back home.
Pull up a circle of 5th. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CC4Q9QEwAw First thing that helps is the chart is a circle - turn it to where your tonic is at 12:00 O'clock.
If your tonic is G what is to the left? It's C. What is to the right? D is to the right. Our ole friend I IV V or G-C-D.
And we all know that I IV V is a great work anywhere progression IF we then return home to the I. So if you need to peek and see what makes up a I IV V on E -- help yourself.

Notice what is at 1:00 O'clock -- It's G. How many sharps will the G scale have? One. What's at 7 O'clock? Go look. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBoQ9QEwAQ How many sharps in C#? Notice the bottom gets a little crowded, ask yourself why? Hint - there are 7 flats also.

Got several measures with the same chord and you would like to insert something. Look at the circle and what leads to your next chord? Insert what leads to the next chord. It'll work and sound great. Writing a bass line - end your forth note bass line with the note that leads to the next chord, i.e. the next chord's fifth. Yep, take a peek.
If we have something like this; |D///|////|////|G///| what leads to G? Insert it in the measure before G, what leads to to it? Insert it in the other measure. That took us to backcycling. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...hp/t-8383.html The circle is full of great things - we just have to know how to read the circle.

Here is a little something on what chords like to go where.

• The I tonic likes to go anywhere in the progression, however, when you go to the I tonic chord you have resolved all the tension you have built up. Do you really want to resolve at this point?
• ii chord likes to go to a dominant chord. The ii is a sub-dominant, as is the IV, so the ii and the IV sub for each other and their task in life is to move the progression to the V or viidim which are the dominant chords.
• iii chord likes to move to the vi and this combination makes a great move to somewhere or turn-a-round combination. More on that later.
• IV chord likes to move to a dominant chord. Remember it's a sub-dominant chord like the ii chord.
• V chord is a dominant chord and likes to move to the tonic I chord. When we add a seventh as in V7 it really wants to do it right now. The V7 is your climax chord. Once you reach climax much after that is anti-climatic. Now the viidim cord is also a dominant chord and it too likes to move to the tonic chord, however, it is not in a hurry to do so. So -- if you want to get back to the tonic chord right now use the V7, however if you want to get to the tonic through a turn-a-round then start with the viidim then go to the iii let it take you to the vi, then go to the ii, V7, I.
• We have not talked about the vi chord. The vi chord likes to move to a sub-dominant chord.
• If we let the chords move where they like to go good things normally happen.

Why do we want to move the verse along using a proven progression? Because the story the verse is telling is written in such a way as to keep your interest. It can - does not have to - start with the I chord. If that is the way the verse starts it is said to be at rest with the I chord, we then move the verse to tension, making it interesting, by moving to the IV chord. The story being told by the verse should by now be moving on to the climax and it can if we use the V7 chord. Where does the V7 like to go? Yep, to the I tonic chord and back to rest. Rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest - that's written a bunch of music.

Have fun.

Thank You! I believe the bulb just got a little less dim

[mambo4]

Malcom's explanation is great.

I believe a lot of confusion comes from experienced players tossing out phrases like "just play the cycle!" without elaboration.
Nobody ever just "plays" the circle of 5ths : it's not a melodic or scalar pattern. "following the circle" always means the chords are moving in 5ths.
So it's kind of an obtuse way of saying "play the chords", and not really useful advice.
But if you are creating bass lines (or any melody) using chords as your guide, then having those chords follow the circle will help your bass line resolve.

In other words: The chords follow the circle, the bass line follows the chords. That is how the circle "helps" your bass line.

I had started harmonizing scales and found that my basslines were quite boring, until someone suggested concentrating on modes.

like the circle of 5ths, Harmonizing the scale is more to be understood than explicity played...
playing triads up and down a C scale valuable in that it gets the sound of each chord in your ears and hands.
But just playing triads for each chord is not really "using" the knowledge to create a bass line, and indeed gets pretty boring.

When players say "use chord tones" or "play the chords" they generally mean using chord tones as a guide,
as targets for your lines to aim for on the important beats.
What you do for the "in between" notes -the passing tones-
is as much a matter of genre, style, rhythm, and personal taste as it is a matter of theory.

[gumtownbassman]

Subscribed !!
This is interesting stuff which i find difficult to get into my head.

[Stumbo]

Circle of Fifths or Circle of Fourths show how chords are related.
Throw in the relative minor and your on your way.

You might want to check this link out:
http://www.hearandplay.com/main/why-...g-major-scales


Here are some other links to check out:
~Theory
Musictheory.net
Learning basic theory
Intro scale & chord theory
3rds & 7ths?
Tri Tone Substitutions
Theory links list
Theory (from the DB side of TB)
Useful music theory info with audio

Learning "modes"
Reason for modes
Using modes
Putting it all together (scales/modes)

Key signatures/Circle of 5ths/Cycle of 4ths
Circle/Cycle of 5ths/4ths (spreadsheet format)

[PhiDeck]

I've found Jim Fleser's "The Chord Wheel: The Ultimate Tool for All Musicians" quite useful in studying/understanding this thread's topic

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0634021427

(I have no vested interest in the success of Mr. Fleser)

[sekeri]

I know that we use the circle of fifths for remembering how many sharps or flats are in each key. Or for chord substitution, determining the best transition, modulation to another key.
But this is a eeally really helpful information here on circle of fifths. Thank you!

[joebar]

i could be wrong, but to me, the circle of fifths makes a lot of sense when reading music; that is when you will recognise the order of sharps and flats as they appear in the staff.
a neighbouring key would contain a lot of common or shared notes which can be helpful.
i am curious too as to what other benefits there are to knowing it.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by joebar

i could be wrong, but to me, the circle of fifths makes a lot of sense when reading music; that is when you will recognise the order of sharps and flats as they appear in the staff.
a neighbouring key would contain a lot of common or shared notes which can be helpful.
i am curious too as to what other benefits there are to knowing it.

I look upon the circle as the Rosetta stone of music theory. The basic dirt simple foundation that everything is based upon. It's just a chart, but, if you look deep enough it'll jog your memory - yes you first have to know what you are looking for and use the chart as a memory peg to help you remember - what you already know, but have forgotten.

Hook the circle with these memory pegs:

• See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
• Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
• Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasley cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
• Notice the memory peg walks around the right and left side of the chart. That's kinda important that you "see" that.

What notes are in the A major scale? C has no sharps, G has one, D has two and A has 3 sharps. Or look where the A is on the chart - it's at 3 O'clock, so it has 3 sharps. Which sharps? Well you gotta go to my memoey peg for that. Fat cats go; so the A major scale has all natural notes except for the F, C and G which are sharps.

And you now have a way to come up with the individual notes in each major scale.
Then by taking that major scale starting with the 6th you have the natural minor scale.
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C = the C major scale.
...................A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A = the A natural minor scale.

That's the basic foundation to everything we do.