Combining music with lyrics?

[Azuteor]

I'm in a rock band made up of friends who I have known for years. These guys are still in high school. I know the lead vocalist/rhythm guitarist and second rhythm guitarist for more than eight years. The lead guitarist and the drummer(s) I have known for about a year. All of us know music theory at varying levels. I only recently got into the bass guitar last April and took lessons throughout the entire summer until college started.

We are basically a cover band, but we would like to start creating our own material as well.

We don't usually have problems coming up with the chord progressions, bass lines, and etc. Most of them are created just by jamming and if we find something we like, we organize it and give it a name based on how we feel at the time. The part that we have the most trouble with is combining lyrics with it.

What would you suggest that we do to make the song creating process easier? Is it better if we start with the lyrics first? What do you do when you create your songs?

[Dellers]

Creating lyrics is a completely different skill than making music, I for one do not even get what most lyrics is about. If I was able to make lyrics I would still start with the music though, 90% of people listening to music listen to it because they like the sound of it. My impression is that most people care nothing or very little about lyrics. Caring about lyrics is pretty much the same as reading a book, but it's not for everyone. Lyrics and music is IMO two completely different things, but of course vocalists need lyrics to avoid sounding stupid.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Dellers

Creating lyrics is a completely different skill than making music, I for one do not even get what most lyrics is about. If I was able to make lyrics I would still start with the music though, 90% of people listening to music listen to it because they like the sound of it. My impression is that most people care nothing or very little about lyrics. Caring about lyrics is pretty much the same as reading a book, but it's not for everyone. Lyrics and music is IMO two completely different things, but of course vocalists need lyrics to avoid sounding stupid.

I'd have to disagree. I know plenty of people who will simply not listen to a song unless it contains singing (which, by extension, means lyrics).

[champbassist]

A few tips (mostly thanks to Sting):

1. Hum along to the music. Could be total gibberish. Vocal melodies will evolve. An example: "Demo" version of the song 'Love Comes Tumbling' by U2. The lyrics are not very close to the final version that appears as the B side of The Unforgettable Fire single (except the chorus) while the music is identical. Appears to me (not 100% sure though) that Bono was improvising words over the music.

2. Start from the chorus and then do the verses. Doing the hook first will provide a solid base to work around.

3. Write lyrics/poems independent of music too. Some spark of poetic brilliance can go with some music you write in the future. It could also be the other way round: it may so be that some piece of instrumental music you abandoned for wont of lyrics goes with some lyrics you happen to write in an unrelated manner.

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I'd have to disagree. I know plenty of people who will simply not listen to a song unless it contains singing (which, by extension, means lyrics).

Yes, true indeed. I think what Dellers mentions maybe be true in case of some (by no means all) musicians. It definitely does not hold true for the average listener, though.

[Dellers]

Originally Posted by champbassist

Yes, true indeed. I think what Dellers mentions maybe be true in case of some (by no means all) musicians. It definitely does not hold true for the average listener, though.

I was actually thinking mostly about listeners, not musicians. Of course it is based on my observations of people I know mainly, and while they may say the lyrics in a song is beautiful or cool, it's never really what got their attention when they first heard the song (for artists like Bob Dylan etc. it's probably different, since his music seems to be mostly about the lyrics, he's not a good musician). I really think many of those who find the lyrics extremely important, is people who love literature and listen to music mainly for the lyrics, and get the music as a "bonus" if you get my point. Two kinds of listeners (even though many of course like literature and music).
What IS important about lyrics is that they have to fit with the mood of the song (or vice versa).

[MalcolmAmos]

I play Country and in Country the lyrics are the song. Everything revolves around the story being told.
It's a chicken or egg thing. Does not matter where you start, but, when you finish everything must fit together.

• I start with the story, with out the story no reason for the song. Understand the following is a structured approach, this may or may not work for you.
• Put the story into a four line verse format, three verses and one chorus. The chorus is the hook.
• Pick a key. The key your vocalist likes. Picking a key to start with makes it so much easier.
• For the first draft grab a cookie cutter chord progression, at this stage I want to move the story along within the verse and use my ole trusted (I) Rest, (IV) Tension, (V7) Climax, (I) Resolution and return to Rest movement that the chord progression can give. I shoot for a complete I IV V I progression in the first two lines of the verse and then repeat this same progression in the 3rd and 4th line. First draft no need to re-invent the wheel - use that same chord progression for the other verses and the chorus. If you want to change something in the fleshing out process you can.
• Here I'm on my rhythm guitar. Move the chords around so the lyrics match the chord changes. Strum and recite the lyrics. Remember it's a first draft.
• OK time for the melody. I move to the keyboard for melody. One melody note per lyric word. If the first chord is a C I'll try the chord tone notes of the C chord and see which one I like the best, i.e. a C note over the first word, then a E note, then a G note. Which ever one sounded the best - that's my first note. From there it's one note for each lyric word. Course you are working with short phrases of lyrics and notes. Which sound good and flow together. Gathering your melody notes from the chords pentatonic scale - as you go - makes it simple. Of course write this down using standard notation. As you progress look at the treble clef, you should see some "wave action" straight line = boring.... - 20 foot waves probably too much.

When you finish the chords and the melody notes should harmonize - they will if each shares some of the same notes at the same time in the song. So -- if you gather your melody from the chord's pentatonic notes, which will have three chord tones and two safe passing notes, that should make a pretty good first draft.

Flesh this out by adding some flavor and color chords (ii's and vi's) and if you need a harmonizing note to tie the melody line and chord line together do that inside one of your existing chords. You do not want to add willie nellie chords and destroy your verse movement, but, adding the harmonizing note as an extension, etc. (inside your chord) will keep the movement intact and also give you the harmonization you must have. Keeping it simple, seems to work best when first starting out. The I IV V chords contain every note in I's scale so those three chords can harmonize your entire song. Need not be complicated.

OK that gets you a lead sheet - treble clef, chords and lyrics. For the bass line do what you normally do when composing your bass line from fake chord or lead sheet music.

Pull up some of your covers and analyze what format they used. Help yourself to what they did.

Good luck.

[Calamity_John]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Pull up some of your covers and analyze what format they used. Help yourself to what they did.

Good luck.

I think that is a great suggestion ..

I would also suggest that if the lyrics are the problem .. start with them .. it will be easier to alter and adjust the music since you are more comfortable with it .. but there is no "correct method"

especially when you start doing this pay some careful attention to "scansion" .. the way the accent pattern of the words lines up with the accent pattern of the beats and time signature ...

it will most likely be awkward if the "ble" of "syllable" ends up on beat 1 ... another example .. "the cat" .. "cat" has more stress than "the" ..
so if you count in a bar of 4 .. "1 2 3 4 the cat" .. it will be awkward compared to "1 2 3 the cat" .. placing "The" as the pickup and "cat" as the downbeat .. the way it happens as we speak ..

most often people will fall into pretty comfortable scansion naturally .. but it is good practice to think about how this works in some of your favorite songs .. in addition to their form and structure ..

if you want to see some awkward scansion .. look at the last few verses of most hymns .. people are just jamming words in .. Jerry Seinfeld makes a point of speaking with flipped accent patterns as part of his routine .. or the one that I heard recently on the radio was that old Toto song "Africa" when they tried to fit "Kilimanjaro" in on one of the later verses ..

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Azuteor

The part that we have the most trouble with is combining lyrics with it.

You mean the melody?

Who are your favorite groups (beyond the covers you play)?

I suggest studying a few of your favorite tunes. Try learning their melodies on the keyboard and play the chords along with it. Listen to how it fits together.

As far as coming up with original melodies, that's the secret weapon. Hey, if writing great tunes was easy, everyone would have a hit song!

Just like you jam the chords and such, you can vocally "jam" the melody. Melodies, lyrics and whole songs can evolve. Just because you settle on some chords and structure, if the melody/lyrics fit some a little different, you can always make changes.

Or you can sing a melody and figure out the chords behind it. Playing with the rhythm, tempo,voicing of the chords and using passing chords can do a lot to make your songs more interesting. Also, sometimes the melody can add a note to the chord being played, e.g. Guitar plays an A chord, vocal hits a seventh while leading to the next chord. It all takes lots of practice and perseverance.

There are a couple of books that analyze hit songs and break down the chord structure:
~Song Writing
Chord Progressions
Chords of Great Songs

TB also has quite a few posts on the topic.

[subexpression]

If the rhythm (guitar & bass) is very syncopated, then the vocals seem to work better if they are straight rhythms. The opposite is true...if the rhythm instruments are playing straight rhythms, then it frees up the vocals to explore a more syncopated feel.

Also, I've noticed that with many songs, the activity level of the rhythm instruments drops a bit during the verses so that the vocals can protrude through the mix. They tend to play less distracting and smoother...this also allows the vocals to establish their own syncopation. This might mean that you could modify the rhythm guitars/bass slightly once the singing starts in, playing a slight variation of the original rhythm.

I agree with those who use the humming method. It tends to create a more natural melody and rhythm than the clinical approach of writing them out first.
I also play guitar melodies over the top of the rhythm within the comfortable vocal range of the singer, and it tends to produce good ideas for vocal melodies. When I listen to songs with vocals, I like the style, rhythm, melody and inflection better than the actual words. There are many songs I like and I'm not even sure what the actual lyrics are! This means the rhythm and melodies are musical and well-written.

Lyrics are another story entirely. A skillfully-written lyric is just as amazing as skilled musicianship. Some of the best lyricists are have voracious reading appetites. If you want to become a great lyricist, read classic and contemporary literature...and lots of it. Poetry is also great to seed the imagination. A lot of modern poetry is based on rigid meter and form, it translates well to music.

Personally, I think that too much rhyming is annoying. Some of my favorite songs have no rhymes whatsoever...they seem to be more confident, and less pretentious.
Although, I have to say some of my favorite songs are also heavily laced with rhymes.

Sometimes I write the lyrics with a vocal melody and rhythm in mind, then write the guitar and bass lines later. At other times, I'll do it the other way around. There doesn't seem to be a right way.

My advice is to write lyrics within certain meters, and pay attention to rests.
The singer has to breathe naturally, and if the song will be popular, your fans will want to sing without turning blue.