Composing in melodic minor

[Langueta]

Hi, i am in a new band, we play progressive music with melodic hooks. I need help with theory,
I´ve written a part for a new song and I created it using the F minor scale with some melodic minor scale chords like F min/maj7. The song original key is in D minor (F major is the relative). So after the chorus in D minor the keyboard player told me to play my part in F minor. It sounds a bit crazy, my part begins with a Fm and then I add a Fmin/Maj7 the part resolves to D minor again.
I was thinking that F major and F melodic minor share 6 of 7 tones.
It is something logical to change key from a D minor (F major) to F melodic minor?????

To clarify miself this are the parts!

I was in D minor and wanted to target F minor so I`ve tried land on a C major chord, and use that as a V to your new key, F minor.

So I changed the chords of the 2nd chorus (in Dm)
FROM :
Dm- C- Bb- F -Em - Am - Em
TO
Dm- C- Bb (Thinking it as I)- F (V of Bb) - EbMaj7 (IV of Bb or VII of F dorian, so we begin to enter on a safe way to go naturaly to Cmaj) -Abmaj (III of F melodic minor or IV of Eb) - Dm7 (VI Fmel minor without 5b) After this land in Cmaj (V), to resolve in Fmel men.

PART B (Part I`ve made before)
Chords in Fminor borrowing some chords of Fmelodic minor:
Fm- FmMaj7-Ebmaj- Cmaj

Return to Dm
Dm-Am7 Dm7-Cmaj-Em
Dm- Bbmaj Cmaj x3
F/Db- Csus4 Gm7- Dm/A

What do you think???

[somegeezer]

No... D Melodic Minor would share 6 of the 7 tones... F Major would share 5? Plus you're playing in D Minor, so it makes sense to keep it in D.

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by somegeezer

No... D Melodic Minor would share 6 of the 7 tones... F Major would share 5? Plus you're playing in D Minor, so it makes sense to keep it in D.

No, you are refering to Harmonic Minor
D minor- has 13b and 7m. D melodic minor has 13 and 7maj. So 5 tones there
F major has 3rd maj and F mel minor has 3rd minor. They have 6 tones in comon-

[somegeezer]

Lowered 13? Would that mean 6 for the normal human being?

[somegeezer]

Either way. Makes sense to keep in in D, otherwise you'd actually be playing in a mode of F Melodic Minor.

[Langueta]

Originally Posted by somegeezer

Either way. Makes sense to keep in in D, otherwise you'd actually be playing in a mode of F Melodic Minor.

Why playing in F melodic minor dont make sense. They share 6 of 7 tones!

[Eminentbass]

Originally Posted by Langueta

Why playing in F melodic minor dont make sense. They share 6 of 7 tones!

They share 6 of the 7 notes but by flattening the 3rd of the F major scale to make it melodic minor the D minor would actually become D min(7)b5 because the b3 of F = b5 of D(A becoming Ab), unless you're using the harmonic minor or aeolian for the D minor chord and F melodic minor for the F min/maj 7 chord. If the latter is the case then the song is in fact changing key for each segment.

What is the style and how long do you hold each chord for? I just sat with my guitar to hear how the chords sounded together and D min7b5 followed by Fmin/maj7 actually sounds quite nice in a dark kind of way(I held each chord for two bars).

My understanding of the melodic minor is that it is traditionally an ascending scale reverting back to the natural minor when descending so I'm not sure if it has any diatonic or modal bearing on the harmony but I liked the min7b5.

[dougjwray]

I think this might fall into the category of, "the songwriter likes the effect of those chords together, so just play them."
You might be analyzing a bit too much, IMHO. I would use my ear and come up with something that both of you like (or that only he likes; it depends on the power structure of the band). :^)
But, if you need some precedents...
The verses of the Doors' "Light My Fire" are A minor to F# minor (if I remember the key of the song correctly) and the Beatles (especially during their "middle period", ca. late '64-'66) wrote quite a few songs where they travelled back and forth between a key and its parallel major or minor, pulling off some incredible changes that way.
Just for the record, everyone, D melodic minor would be D E F G A B C# D on the way up and D C Bb A G F E D on the way down. F melodic minor on the way up: F G Ab Bb C D E F. F melodic minor on the way down: F Eb Db C Bb Ab G F.

[derekd]

Borrowing chords between the modes of other scales (major, melodic minor, harmonic minor) is referred to as modal interchange. You can borrow at will, and this is frequently done in jazz.

It is a cool way to take a tired or well known chord progression and spice it up. Certainly these borrowed chords/lines are going to add tension, as it isn't gonna sound the same as if you stay with the base chords of your original key. But as dougjwray pointed out, use what sounds good to you guys.

As far as over analysing goes, I think that knowledge is power, and having knowledge of such topics of substitution gives one more tools for composing and improvisation.

13 is common use when the 6th tone is used an octave above the root.

[A440Hz]

Originally Posted by Langueta

Hi, i am in a new band, we play progressive music with melodic hooks. I need help with theory,
I´ve written a part for a new song and I created it using the F minor scale with some melodic minor scale chords like F min/maj7. The song original key is in D minor (F major is the relative). So after the chorus in D minor the keyboard player told me to play my part in F minor. It sounds a bit crazy, my part begins with a Fm and then I add a Fmin/Maj7 the part resolves to D minor again.
I was thinking that F major and F melodic minor share 6 of 7 tones.
It is something logical to change key from a D minor (F major) to F melodic minor?????

Danny Elfman would not have a career if it weren't for a minor chord followed by another minor a minor third up (like Dmin to Fmin).

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by Langueta

It is something logical to change key from a D minor (F major) to F melodic minor?????

you shoulden't think of D minor and F major as the same keys, wich is implied by how you worded that- yes, theyre relative keys- but that doesent mean they are neccesarily interchangeable. the sence of "tonic" is what really establishes what key your in- not neccesarily the scale this music was based upon.. (if you try and hum the tonic, youll never accidently sing the relative key's tonic..)

but anyway, back on topic.

yes and no.

it all depends on your real understanding of music theory (thats a bad term, perhaps i should use the term "composition techneque..?") ie, could beethoven modulate from one minor key to another minor key, up a minor third? absolutely, he was a master at sneaking in key changes with great natural "flow" to the music. should you just hit this new key on a downbeat? probably not (thats not to say you cant try it and end up liking it.)

if i was in D minor and wanted to target F minor, my first approach would be to find a natural sounding way to land myself on a C major chord, and use that as a V to your new key, F minor. (the concept of leading tones / V chord functions, is really basic, but so, so usefull for an easy key change.)

[dougjwray]

[quote=derekd;9298063]

As far as over analysing goes, I think that knowledge is power, and having knowledge of such topics of substitution gives one more tools for composing and improvisation.

QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. When I said that, I was remembering my many years playing with a 100% untrained -- yet highly inventive and imaginative -- singer/songwriter/guitarist/recording artist who would tune his acoustic guitar to open chords and discover sounds that he liked, via serendipity. In the beginning, I was right out of Berklee, and undergrad music school before that, and I was constantly trying to rationalize or make some logical sense out of it. "You can't do that!!" After a while, I realized that I had it all backward. I knew theory, but with him I simply used my ear to come up with parts, and enjoyed the fresh stuff he was coming up with.

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by A440Hz

Danny Elfman would not have a career if it weren't for a minor chord followed by another minor a minor third up (like Dmin to Fmin).

Another film composer, Bernard Hermann, famous for "Psycho" and "Vertigo", also did it a lot in "pagan" epics like "Jason and the Argonauts."

[Eminentbass]

Langueta, I just read your original question again and it occured to me that a F min/maj7 can be derived from the F harmonic minor scale because it contains a maj7 when ascending, only reverting back to natural minor scale/aeolian mode when descending. This might bypass the confusion about the melodic minor scale plus eliminate what I said in my previous post about D min7b5, unless you're actually wanting to use or particularly like the melodic minor. It might just be a case of two different keys and if they sound good together then go with it.

I did stuff around a bit with trying out lines bouncing between D minor and F minor using the aeolian mode for the D minor and switching to F melodic minor for the F min/maj7 and it seems some fun can be had with that.

[A440Hz]

Originally Posted by Eminentbass

Langueta, I just read your original question again and it occured to me that a F min/maj7 can be derived from the F harmonic minor scale because it contains a maj7 when ascending, only reverting back to natural minor scale/aeolian mode when descending. This might bypass the confusion about the melodic minor scale plus eliminate what I said in my previous post about D min7b5, unless you're actually wanting to use or particularly like the melodic minor. It might just be a case of two different keys and if they sound good together then go with it.

I did stuff around a bit with trying out lines bouncing between D minor and F minor using the aeolian mode for the D minor and switching to F melodic minor for the F min/maj7 and it seems some fun can be had with that.

Harmonic minor doesn't change ascending/descending. It's always b6, maj7.

I agree that the min/maj7 chord is very rich for interesting harmony and melody. One of the explanations I heard in college for why minor keys sound more "expressive" is that they have greater opportunities for accidentals that are fairly normal. Sure, you can put accidentals in a major key, but they aren't always "normal" sounding.

Just a quick for instance progression to illustrate:

Fm | F7/A | Bbm | Bb7/D | Eb | Ab | Csus7 | C7 ||

That won't necessarily sound coherent all the way through without a melody, but in that progression, you've got Ab, A natural, Eb, E natural, Db, and D natural. That's b3, 3, b7, maj7, b6, and nat6. And it all can be made to sound "normal" but also "expressive."

[Eminentbass]

Originally Posted by A440Hz

Harmonic minor doesn't change ascending/descending. It's always b6, maj7.

You are correct, my apologies. Would it be safe to say that both the natural and harmonic minor scales can be used in building lines/melodies within the same composition when the maj 7 isn't being emphasized either through the min/maj7
chord
or dominant chord function?

Let me just clarify my previous post though. I was trying to stress that the harmonic minor is often the default scale when working in a minor key, so the min/maj7 while not frequently used isn't such an odd occurence and doesn't rely only on the melodic minor scale to be applied.

[Richard Lindsey]

In a way, the divisions between the respective minor scales are often made into more than they really are. They're kind of artificial, in a sense, because they existence of three forms of minor scales is often taken to imply that there are three different types of minor tonality, the distinctions between which are fairly rigidly observed. Much if not most of the time, this isn't really true.

It's often best to think in terms of a single minor tonality that can make use of either the minor or the major 6 and either the minor or the major 7, as necessary. Here's an excellent post by HaVIC5 from another thread on this:

"Strictly in Melodic Minor? Well, it doesn't really work that way, like I was getting at with that post dealing with "composite minor". Normally melodic minor is a particular sort of "colour" that can be generated in a minor-key harmony tune, but it is almost never the case where that color stays the same throughout the entire tune, the same with pure harmonic minor harmony (pure natural minor harmony is used occasionally, but then it sounds like modal aeolian and not tonal minor harmony). I say almost never because I'm sure somebody somewhere has done it, but I don't know of any circumstance where you'd use strict harmony in the melodic minor.

The composite minor is a rather complicated and abstract subject, I know, but once you start getting the hang of it, it's not that bad. One way you can think of it is there actually is only ONE minor scale where at certain times you can change the sixth and seventh degrees for varying purposes. This is what classical composers and theorists did - when you needed a dominant-tonic relationship you changed the b7 to a natural 7, or the all-important leading tone in tonal harmony, and created a dominant chord. This change was created for harmonic reasons - thus "harmonic minor". When you wanted to create a nice linear line that spaned from the sixth to the seventh and wanted to avoid the interval of an augmented 2nd (from b6 to 7, generally considered very difficult to sing), you'd made the sixth natural for a more linear melodic shape, thus "melodic minor". This same concept translated to jazz harmony, but instead of thinking in terms of chromatic alterations of the sixth and seventh, you started thinking in terms of harmonic alterations based upon three different diatonic systems."

It's also not really the case that melodic minor means you have to use the minor 6 and 7 when moving down. That's just how the scales are conventionally practiced. But practicing scales is not the same as playing or composing music. In real music, you can easily find examples of the major 6 and 7 being used in descending lines, and not just in jazz either.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

In a way, the divisions between the respective minor scales are often made into more than they really are. They're kind of artificial, in a sense, because they existence of three forms of minor scales is often taken to imply that there are three different types of minor tonality, the distinctions between which are fairly rigidly observed. Much if not most of the time, this isn't really true.

It's often best to think in terms of a single minor tonality that can make use of either the minor or the major 6 and either the minor or the major 7, as necessary. Here's an excellent post by HaVIC5 from another thread on this:

"Strictly in Melodic Minor? Well, it doesn't really work that way, like I was getting at with that post dealing with "composite minor". Normally melodic minor is a particular sort of "colour" that can be generated in a minor-key harmony tune, but it is almost never the case where that color stays the same throughout the entire tune, the same with pure harmonic minor harmony (pure natural minor harmony is used occasionally, but then it sounds like modal aeolian and not tonal minor harmony). I say almost never because I'm sure somebody somewhere has done it, but I don't know of any circumstance where you'd use strict harmony in the melodic minor.

The composite minor is a rather complicated and abstract subject, I know, but once you start getting the hang of it, it's not that bad. One way you can think of it is there actually is only ONE minor scale where at certain times you can change the sixth and seventh degrees for varying purposes. This is what classical composers and theorists did - when you needed a dominant-tonic relationship you changed the b7 to a natural 7, or the all-important leading tone in tonal harmony, and created a dominant chord. This change was created for harmonic reasons - thus "harmonic minor". When you wanted to create a nice linear line that spaned from the sixth to the seventh and wanted to avoid the interval of an augmented 2nd (from b6 to 7, generally considered very difficult to sing), you'd made the sixth natural for a more linear melodic shape, thus "melodic minor". This same concept translated to jazz harmony, but instead of thinking in terms of chromatic alterations of the sixth and seventh, you started thinking in terms of harmonic alterations based upon three different diatonic systems."

It's also not really the case that melodic minor means you have to use the minor 6 and 7 when moving down. That's just how the scales are conventionally practiced. But practicing scales is not the same as playing or composing music. In real music, you can easily find examples of the major 6 and 7 being used in descending lines, and not just in jazz either.

Excellent post.

One very small additional note. Consequently, as melodic minor can be used for both ascending and descending lines, the subdominant chords of minor tonalities can use either b6 or 6, according to taste, and they may all be considered diatonic chords. Or to give a simple example, in the key of Cm there's a choice of at least four diationic subdominant chords (Fm, F, Dmb5, Dm - or with minor 7th).
However, to create a sense of harmonic direction and tension, it's logical to use b6 going down and 6 going up. But then again, if you hate being predictable, please yourself and turn it around

[WormWoodSoup]

nicely done Sir Richard Lindsey! plus 1 on this. I'm just wondering how those melodic solos sounds so melodic without sounding too intervallic or scalar? Like per se Mike Flynn on his youtube video melodic jam in G? How would you work it?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by WormWoodSoup

nicely done Sir Richard Lindsey! plus 1 on this. I'm just wondering how those melodic solos sounds so melodic without sounding too intervallic or scalar? Like per se Mike Flynn on his youtube video melodic jam in G? How would you work it?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. It sounds, though I could be wrong, as if you're conflating the idea of being "melodic" with using the melodic minor scale, and the two have no necessary connection. Being "intervallic" or "scalar" are not properties of major, minor, or modal.