Confused about the "circle of fifths" and keys

[iplaybasstexas]

Will someone explain the Circle of Fifths for me in easy to understand terms? I was asked to learn it. I also need help learning keys and how to get into them.

(i.e. i was asked "key of G, what notes do you play"?)

Help me out guys. And please make them easy to understand. i tried Wikipedia and i didn't understand that.

Thanks!

[Mushroo]

Hi there
The Circle of 5ths is a visual aid for organizing the different key signatures.
You have to know what a 5th is, obviously... on the bass, it is up 1 string and 2 frets. For example, C on the 3rd fret of the A string to G on the 5th fret of the D string... that's a 5th.

So picture a circle, like a clock. C is at the top. The key of C Major has no sharps or flats in its key signature.
Going up a 5th moves you one position clockwise and adds one sharp to the key signature.
C up to G is a 5th. G is at 1 o'clock and has 1 sharp
G up to D is a 5th. D is at 2 o'clock and has 2 sharps
etc. (you can see the rest on the wikipedia page)

Going *down* a 5th moves you one position counter-clockwise and adds a flat.
C down to F is a 5th. F is at 11 o'clock and has 1 flat
F down to Bb is a 5th. Bb is at 10 o'clock and has 2 flats
and so on

Things get tricky at the bottom of the circle when you have a lot of sharps or flats. For example, 6 o'clock can be either F# with 6 sharps or Gb with 6 flats (F# and Gb are different names for the same pitch).

That's the simplest explanation I can give. If you want to learn more, you need to learn what a major scale is and how it is built. That is another topic! There are also relative minor keys for every major scale (for example, A Minor has the same key signature as C Major), again, another topic.

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Hi there
The Circle of 5ths is a visual aid for organizing the different key signatures.
You have to know what a 5th is, obviously... on the bass, it is up 1 string and 2 frets. For example, C on the 3rd fret of the A string to G on the 5th fret of the D string... that's a 5th.

So picture a circle, like a clock. C is at the top. The key of C Major has no sharps or flats in its key signature.
Going up a 5th moves you one position clockwise and adds one sharp to the key signature.
C up to G is a 5th. G is at 1 o'clock and has 1 sharp
G up to D is a 5th. D is at 2 o'clock and has 2 sharps
etc. (you can see the rest on the wikipedia page)

Going *down* a 5th moves you one position counter-clockwise and adds a flat.
C down to F is a 5th. F is at 11 o'clock and has 1 flat
F down to Bb is a 5th. Bb is at 10 o'clock and has 2 flats
and so on

Things get tricky at the bottom of the circle when you have a lot of sharps or flats. For example, 6 o'clock can be either F# with 6 sharps or Gb with 6 flats.

That's the simplest explanation I can give. If you want to learn more, you need to learn what a major scale is and how it is built. That is another topic! There are also relative minor keys for every major scale (for example, A Minor has the same key signature as C Major), again, another topic.

i understand most of that. BUT
how does that relate to playing music?

[Muusers]

That's really hard to explain not in person, but i'll try

I take you know that a song can be in different keys, such as Gmajor or Ebminor, these keys have certain adaptations if you will to the notes.

The key Cmajor has zero adaptations, or zero # or b as standard signs:


Whereas Gmajor for example has one #:


As you mightve noticed, C-G is a fifth and it differs one adaptation, this leads to the circle of fifths:
G-D: D has 2 #
D-A: A has 3 #
etc.
the other way round
F-C: F has 1 b
Bb-F : Bb has 2 b
etc.
if you would write this continuously, you would find out you would be walking in circles, thus the circle of fifths:


The circle of fifths can be used to transpose music pieces from one key to another more easily. Also it tells us what notes to play when in major (or minor, i'll get to that)
For example Ebmajor has 3 b, so the Ebmajor scale would be:
Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - Eb instead of just
E - F - G - A - B - C - D - E

To learn where you should place the flats and sharps, is just a matter of learning the circle of fifths by heart. I know there's a saying in dutch to memorize them more easily, but i don't know of one in English.

Questions?

[Tslicebass]

the circle of fifths is simply a practice tool for playing ideas, scales, etc in all 12 keys.
It is more useful than using a chromatic (play an idea then up a 1/2 step.... up a 1/2 step... up a 1/2 step... etc) approach because chords in most songs have a tendency to move in fifths (or fourths depending on how you think about it) rather than by 1/2 steps.
It is only a tool for practice.
Example
Imagine if you had a bass with 14 strings on it all tuned in fourths. Starting on the lowest string you would play a C major triad. Then you would move that pattern up a string, which would give you F major triad, then up a string would give you a Bb major triad, then up a string would give you a Eb major triad, etc...
But since the bass usually only has 4 (or 5 or 6 or 7 ) strings you need to adjust your hand positioning to different places to play that pattern.
The easiest way to start it to just play a pattern from C on the E string then F on the A string. Then just move down a whole step and play from Bb on the E string and then Eb on the A string. Keep going in that pattern until you reach B on the A string. Then in order to avoid open strings start at E on the A string then A on the E string. Then continue that pattern till you end at G on the E string.
So the cycle would be
C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb,B,E,A,D,G. All 12 notes.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by iplaybasstexas

i understand most of that. BUT
how does that relate to playing music?

Good question!
The two most important reasons to know what key you are playing in:

1) Songs usually start and/or end on the "tonic," which is the note that gives the key its name. So if a song is in the key of C Major, you'll be playing the note C a lot, and the guitarist/pianist will play a lot of C Major chords.
2) Each key has a scale that goes with it. If you're in the key of C Major, you need to know the C Major scale (CDEFGABC). This doesn't mean you can't play notes outside the scale, but it is a good starting point.

Let's look at D Major as an example. D is up two 5ths from C (C to G, G to D), so it has 2 sharps. I happen to know these two sharps are F# and C# because I memorized the order of sharps and flats, and you should too. So the D Major scale is D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D. D is the tonic, or most important note, and the notes of the D Major scale are a good starting point for coming up with a bass line.

Does that help?

[iplaybasstexas]

wow, you guys are good at this. okay, so if the song is in Key of G, what notes should i play?

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by iplaybasstexas

wow, you guys are good at this. okay, so if the song is in Key of G, what notes should i play?

You tell us
How many sharps does the key of G have?

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

You tell us
How many sharps does the key of G have?

hot seat.....dang.


uh, 1?

[Muusers]

G major?

The circle of fifths tells us there's one #
so
G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G

that's because the distances between the notes on a major scale are 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2

if you would play an F instead of F# you'd get 1-1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1, which is not the major scale

[Mushroo]

Here is the order that sharps and flats get added to the key signature:

Sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
Flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb

You'll notice these notes also follow the pattern of 5ths!

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by Muusers

G major?

The circle of fifths tells us there's one #
so
G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G

that's because the distances between the notes on a major scale are 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2

if you would play an F instead of F# you'd get 1-1-1/2-1-1-1/2-1, which is not the major scale

that note progression is all the notes on the E string. is that what i'm supposed to get?

[Muusers]

no...

what are you having trouble with exactly?

[T-MOST]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Hi there
The Circle of 5ths is a visual aid for organizing the different key signatures.
You have to know what a 5th is, obviously... on the bass, it is up 1 string and 2 frets. For example, C on the 3rd fret of the A string to G on the 5th fret of the D string... that's a 5th.

So picture a circle, like a clock. C is at the top. The key of C Major has no sharps or flats in its key signature.
Going up a 5th moves you one position clockwise and adds one sharp to the key signature.
C up to G is a 5th. G is at 1 o'clock and has 1 sharp
G up to D is a 5th. D is at 2 o'clock and has 2 sharps
etc. (you can see the rest on the wikipedia page)

Going *down* a 5th moves you one position counter-clockwise and adds a flat.
C down to F is a 5th. F is at 11 o'clock and has 1 flat
F down to Bb is a 5th. Bb is at 10 o'clock and has 2 flats
and so on

Things get tricky at the bottom of the circle when you have a lot of sharps or flats. For example, 6 o'clock can be either F# with 6 sharps or Gb with 6 flats (F# and Gb are different names for the same pitch).

That's the simplest explanation I can give. If you want to learn more, you need to learn what a major scale is and how it is built. That is another topic! There are also relative minor keys for every major scale (for example, A Minor has the same key signature as C Major), again, another topic.

I already know my circle of 5ths but that was still the best explanation I've ever heard. The clock makes all the difference.

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by Muusers

no...

what are you having trouble with exactly?

The Circle of Fifths.

I know this:

A key's name is the root note (key of G starts on the G)
a fifth is 1 sting and 2 frets up
the circle of fifths adds a sharp everytime
the sharps are every other fret on the bass.
(E F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E F)

And i don't get how the circle of fifths correlates to playing music.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by iplaybasstexas

And i don't get how the circle of fifths correlates to playing music.

It doesn't!
People invented music because it sounds good.
Some notes sound better than others.
The Circle of 5ths is an attempt to explain and organize the music that people were already playing.
In other words, music comes first, music theory comes later.
But music theory can be a shortcut for learning what to play.
If we locked you in a room with your bass for 100 years, you would invent the Circle of 5th on your own.
We are just trying to save you some time!

[iplaybasstexas]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

It doesn't!
People invented music because it sounds good.
Some notes sound better than others.
The Circle of 5ths is an attempt to explain and organize the music that people were already playing.
In other words, music comes first, music theory comes later.
But music theory can be a shortcut for learning what to play.
If we locked you in a room with your bass for 100 years, you would invent the Circle of 5th on your own.
We are just trying to save you some time!

Dang!!!!!!!

okay, so i don't need to worry about learning it just yet, right?

the band leader "changes keys alot and learning the Circle will help you". but if keys are made at the root, and i know all the roots, then changing keys is playing a different fret, right?

[Muusers]

ah okay, have you got a piano or keyboard? it's easiest explained on that because you can see it better:



If you play all the white notes from C to C you've got the major scale. If you count the spaces between the notes you get:
C - D = 1
D - E = 1
E - F = 1/2
F - G = 1
G - A = 1
A - B = 1
B - C = 1/2

so 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2 are the spaces that always have to maintained in order to play a major scale

Now, if you would play all the white notes from G to G you would get different spaces:
G - A = 1
A - B = 1
B - C = 1/2
C - D = 1
D - E = 1
E - F = 1/2
F - G = 1

you get 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 instead of 1 - 1 - 1/2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1/2
So we put a sharp in front of the F to get E - F#, which is one space instead of a half
G - A = 1
A - B = 1
B - C = 1/2
C - D = 1
D - E = 1
E - F# = 1
F# - G = 1/2
And now you play a major scale again

[Emmaemme]

When things are explained in such simple terms they start making sense. Thanks to all.

[Jazzdogg]

If you were to add one more element to the "clock diagram" posted by Muusers, you could also use the "circle" as a quick reference for minor scales and relative minor keys.

In the clock diagram, there are "spokes" radiating out from the center. At the end of each spoke is a label to indicate Major key signature and the number of accidentals in that key; e.g., at the noon position the label at the end of the spoke is "C." The key of "A minor" uses the same accidentals as the key of C, and is referred to as the relative minor of "C."

If you move to the 1:00 position, the relative minor of "G" is "E minor," which utilizes the same accidentals as the key of "G." You may have also noticed that the "distance" between "A" and "E" is also a fifth/fourth, from which one can infer that relative minor keys maintain the same interval and accidental relationships as the major keys.