Confused with the key to this piece

[DumbChild]

I decided to learn a song and figured a good way to start would be to work out what key it was in. 10 minutes later i've got the notes B,C,C#,D,D#,G#A and F#

Is it just me or does that not fit into anything?

and no i didn't hear wrong :]

Any ideas xD?

[Fergie Fulton]

Hi there, going on just the accidental information you've supplied the key is E major, or its relative harmonic minor C# depending on the context of the song. It could even be C# melodic minor?

You have listed 4 sharps, F#,C#,G#,D#, and although you have listed D and C as natural, with out the whole piece written down, not nessesarly scored mind you, i would assume that the D and C were naturalised to suit purpose or as part of a key change in maybe a section.
Or maybe the key is A major or its relative minor,F# minor which is 3 sharps F#,C#,G# and the 4th sharp, D# is imported and used only now and then. Just because it has 4 sharps it does not mean its has a key of 4 sharps, it may be it has a lesser key and imports accidentals to suit its composition.
The big clue is the D and the C, how often are the naturalised (flattend, lowered a semitone) from key of E major, how often, and in what context within the song (bridge, chorus, solo etc) answer that and you can assume a key.

Thats without even considering it possibilites of being Db major, and relitive minors which would have the 5 flats, Bb,Eb,Ab,Db,Gb in its key, you have to put your information in context, maybe think about it, and work on it for a bit longer than ten minutes.

[JtheJazzMan]

yes we have no idea if any of those notes are chromatic notes, or what context theyre in.

could be in the key of fred sharp for all we know

more info please

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by DumbChild

I decided to learn a song and figured a good way to start would be to work out what key it was in. 10 minutes later i've got the notes B,C,C#,D,D#,G#A and F#

Is it just me or does that not fit into anything?

and no i didn't hear wrong :]

Any ideas xD?

Knowing what the key is - is no real help to learning it and adds very little to your knowledge - far better to learn the chords and what notes are in them, along with their structure.

If you really want to learn a tune - then do a search for Ed Fuqua...

[megadan]

I would worry less about finding the key and worry more about finding the notes in the order they're played

Despite the theoretical important of the key, it's secondary to the way the song actually goes.

[mambo4]

+1 to learning the chords

[JtheJazzMan]

unless every single chord extension is written down on the chord symbols, you can only guess extensions if you dont have an idea of what the tonality is

ill hold out for more info

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by megadan

I would worry less about finding the key and worry more about finding the notes in the order they're played

Rather than what, not playing them in the order their written in? I think that comment and observation is a given

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP8TUe993uo

Originally Posted by megadan

Despite the theoretical important of the key, it's secondary to the way the song actually goes.

If you have the key, you have the notes, if you have the key you have the chord tones, if you have the key you have all the information to build on. The clue is in the word key,.....KEY.... as in the key to open something up, the key to the problem, "he was a key figure"...."the key to this problem lies in"... the key to solving this if you knowing your theory. So i'm afraid key is important thats why the word key is used.

It took me less than 30 seconds to come to my conclussions in my earlier post about what i could or could not be with out hearing the song. In maths what your trying to solve is the equvilent of 2 plus 2 plus two, or in English spell dog, its not an issue to work it out.

[megadan]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

If you have the key, you have the notes, if you have the key you have the chord tones, if you have the key you have all the information to build on.

I disagree, but so be it! I'm not extremely well versed in theory as some here are.

[JtheJazzMan]

far out, whats the point in arguing over something we cant even hear

if we get a sound clip then we can tell

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

If you have the key, you have the notes, if you have the key you have the chord tones, if you have the key you have all the information to build on. .

Sorry - that statement is total rubbish!

That would logically mean there have only been as many pieces of music written, as there are keys!!

So - knowing that a Beethoven Symphony is in EMajor - does not give me the tune or chords used - any more than knowing a Beach Boys tune is in E Major...

Knowing that either is in a particular key does not give you all of those pieces of music and will not mean you can play them!


So - here's a concrete example : Mozart's String Quartet No.18 is in A Major - can you tell me how it starts, can you tell me the melody....

[DumbChild]

Personally i've always worked a song out by finding the key first, then i have a better idea of which chords and notes i can expect to hear/play. I'm pretty sure its B minor.. considering the song starts and ends on a B, but i dunno. I'll just post the video again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFD1r0c-1U

It's quite a different piece...

Thanks

[Jake of Bass]

It's basically in F# natural minor. Changes to Harmonic minor, chucks in the tritone as a passing chord, but it's "home chord" is F# minor, and the scale tones are centered around that scale.

F# minor gives you the scale tones but remember that chords always take precedence over key.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Sorry - that statement is total rubbish!

That would logically mean there have only been as many pieces of music written, as there are keys!!

So - knowing that a Beethoven Symphony is in EMajor - does not give me the tune or chords used - any more than knowing a Beach Boys tune is in E Major...

Knowing that either is in a particular key does not give you all of those pieces of music and will not mean you can play them!


So - here's a concrete example : Mozart's String Quartet No.18 is in A Major - can you tell me how it starts, can you tell me the melody....

Great points and i agree, to a certain extent, but your quoting examples out of context, if i have the key to a car its not going to get me anywhere unless i know how to use it, and your changing the OPs question which is about "the key". People will always "rubbish" things they don't understand.
One of the first question you will ask as a player or work out when playing music with others is "what key".

Think of the key as a page number in a book,why go through the whole book searching for something when you can go straight to the relevent page?

As for your example on Mozart's String Concerto no 18, I take it are we talking about the Haydn concertoes, because if so, if key was not that important why the did Mozart feel the need to name them, and write them, as other classical composers do in keys, and name them in their titles?

String Quartet No. 14 in G major, (1782)
String Quartet No. 15 in D minor, (1783)
String Quartet No. 16 in E-flat major, (1783)
String Quartet No. 17 in B flat major (1784)
String Quartet No. 18 in A major, (1785)
String Quartet No. 19 in C major ("Dissonance"),(1785)

So yes if i had to i can tell you all the information you need about concerto no 18 if i hear it again. The OP is trying to work out a song, and have him learn and understand about keys is a basic fundimental to learn. So encourage him and keep it informative and positive. If we give him the answer he learns nothing, hence the repy to work it out for himself by spending more time on it, and the link to the Grieg Piano Concerto was to keep it light. I suggest you do the same and understand the bigger picture around the OP, rather than bring classical to the post.

[JtheJazzMan]

whats with the key hating in this thread? keys and chords go hand in hand. this piece is nothing adventurous in terms of tonality so learning the key is a good idea.

it will tell you straight up what extensions will be on the F# minor and you can pick the D lydian chord straight away, and what functions the diminished chords will have. etc etc

if you want to play in the dark about such things then fine, but why preach indifference to such things?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well I think there is a big danger in saying to a beginner - "key is everything" - I think it is wrong to say this.

What happens in practice is that beginners just choose random notes from a key and think they are playing music!

I think it's far better to start with chords and how they are constructed - looking at these and how they change - rather than saying it's just all xxxx key!

Key might be important to classical composers in a certain sense but it's not a good starting point for beginners - far better to understand chords!

Many pop/rock songs are ambiguous about key - but are easy enough to understand as chord structures if you ignore this fixation with key.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I think it's far better to start with chords and how they are constructed - looking at these and how they change - rather than saying it's just all xxxx key!

and im sure it goes without saying, the vast, vast majority of western music is progressions through the modes of a key. this clip is no different, with a couple of chords from other scales.

i always teach students how to construct chords from a key or scale rather than tell them "this chords contains these notes". its really not that much more work, and it puts their understanding light years ahead.

[Bruce Lindfield]

But you have ignored my point about how many songs can be ambiguous about key may or move through different keys...

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well I think there is a big danger in saying to a beginner - "key is everything" - I think it is wrong to say this.

Many pop/rock songs are ambiguous about key - but are easy enough to understand as chord structures if you ignore this fixation with key.

I agree totaly but it was never stated that "Key is Everything".
only that key is important. Like all the information the OP will absorbe and use in his life, it up to him to absorbe it, this will become subconcious as in some songs, you'll just know the key, it can be no other, job done. Other times you'll use chords, meldoy and harmony and the key will be one of the last things that comes together...when using your ear.
And as already stated they all go hand and hand, so you should understand there relation, not rubbish one in favor of the other, or thats just half the story you'll be getting.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

But you have ignored my point about how many songs can be ambiguous about key may or move through different keys...

I don't understand your question. Are you asking how they move through keys or why the key changes so often?. Because it seem to me your answering your own question.